Noisy brakes & rough front rim

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Lisa,

You've got it right about toe-out causing brake squeal and toe-in reducing it. But I think you've got it backwards about plowing and debris. Toe-in would tend to trap debris between pad and rim. The KoolStop wedges point backwards to scrape water and debris off the rims.

Oh I see what my error is!- I am thinking of the wheel as going backwards!!! D'OH! Not enough espresso!!!!!!! Right theory- wrong rotation direction.
Yes indeed- the "Toe-in" position would have the REAR end of the pad hitting the rim first, and thus clearing the rim of debris before it gets under the brake pad as it clamps down. Heck, they should really call in the "heel-in" position, shouldn't they? And yes, the wedges on the KS pads are on the REAR end of the pads.
Thanks for the correction, wouldn't want to confuse anyone!

[DebW]

Oh I see what my error is!- I am thinking of the wheel as going backwards!!! D'OH! Not enough espresso!!!!!!! Right theory- wrong rotation direction.
Yes indeed- the "Toe-in" position would have the REAR end of the pad hitting the rim first, and thus clearing the rim of debris before it gets under the brake pad as it clamps down. Heck, they should really call in the "heel-in" position, shouldn't they? And yes, the wedges on the KS pads are on the REAR end of the pads.
Thanks for the correction, wouldn't want to confuse anyone!

To avoid more confusion, the term "toe-in" is accepted to mean that the front of the pad hits the rim first. "Toe-out" is the rear of the pad hitting first. Pads should contact the rim either toe-in or flat. Toe-out often produces vibration and hence squeal. Though any pad is probably hitting flat when the brake is squeezed hard, hence the rear-facing wedges do their job of scrubbing water off the rim.

[silver]

The issue that I'm referring to on my 1000 is not just "squeaky" brakes. I agree that toe-in does correct "squeaky" brakes.

But the issue here is a scraping noise that the brakes make. When we examine the brake pads, there will be slivers of metal in the brake pads.

The Kool-Stop salmon pads were not recommended to correct "squeaky" brakes but to help eliminate the abrasion that was creating the slivers on this low end rim. The thought was that the stock pads were too hard for this low end rim.

does that make sense? two different issues

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

The issue that I'm referring to on my 1000 is not just "squeaky" brakes. I agree that toe-in does correct "squeaky" brakes.

But the issue here is a scraping noise that the brakes make. When we examine the brake pads, there will be slivers of metal in the brake pads.

The Kool-Stop salmon pads were not recommended to correct "squeaky" brakes but to help eliminate the abrasion that was creating the slivers on this low end rim. The thought was that the stock pads were too hard for this low end rim.

does that make sense? two different issues

Silver,
I see from your BikeJournal stats that you ride a LOT of miles. Maybe you deserve a rim upgrade?

[RolliePollie]

Silver - I'm having the same sound...not squealing but more like a grating sound. It's really not a nice sound. And not nice knowing that I'm wearing down my rims every time I brake! Luckily, living in a rural area, I don't have intersections and such where I have to come to a complete stop very often. I do have hills though...but usually the downhills are followed by uphills so I don't want to brake and lose my momentum.

I'll look at my brake pads tomorrow to see if they're toeing in or out. That concept makes so much sense! For a new rider like me who is only averaging about 75 miles a week right now, a little extra brake pad maintenance is ok. I think I can put up with this and stay safe through this season. Sounds like maybe upgrading the wheels and brake pads would be a good idea for next season.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

For a new rider like me who is only averaging about 75 miles a week right now...

Hey whaddya talkin'?!! 75 miles a week is not an "only"!!

[silver]

Silver,
I see from your BikeJournal stats that you ride a LOT of miles. Maybe you deserve a rim upgrade?

Lisa, this is my old bike that I'm referring to. the one that I wrecked. most of my miles are on my lovely new Madone. The old one is delegated to bad weather and nasty conditions already. I'll probably try to get some of those kool stop pads eventually, but I wont be putting any money into it.


Even though I don't have this particular problem (actually i have no problems at all) on my madone, I am longing for even nicer wheels on it....lighter....faster... Maybe next christmas....

OK finally had time to pull one of those links......

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Brake_Pa...ct_20455.shtml

[RolliePollie]

Hey whaddya talkin'?!! 75 miles a week is not an "only"!!

I want to do closer to 100 a week! But unfortunately, that darned job of mine makes it hard to ride as often as I'd like. And also unfortuntately, the 75 is usually one flat 35-40 mile ride and two 18-20 mile rides. I'd much rather be doing 5-6 days of shorter rides. Uh oh, am I doing that thread drift thing?

Back to the brakes...why the heck did Trek put this combination of rims and pads together if they don't get along well? I am learning a lot about how much money you can easily spend upgrading even an entry level bike. But it's worth it so I'm really not complaining. I'll just have to add "really good wheels" to my wish list for a new bike that I'll be purchasing SOMEDAY!!! In the meantime, I'll become an expert at removing those tiny shards of metal. And I'll go look for the Kool Stop pads too.

[RolliePollie]

I bought some Kool Stop pads today...got the black ones for dry conditions because it won't be wet around here again until October or November. Plus that's all they had at REI

Are these pads something I can put on the bike myself or do I need to take it to the LBS? I'm kind of afraid I'll do it wrong and I don't want to end up with brakes that don't work. If it's easy and relatively fool-proof, I'll do it. As usual, here I am, a big newbie looking for more advice!

[DebW]

Are these pads something I can put on the bike myself or do I need to take it to the LBS? I'm kind of afraid I'll do it wrong and I don't want to end up with brakes that don't work. If it's easy and relatively fool-proof, I'll do it. As usual, here I am, a big newbie looking for more advice!

Pretty easy and almost foolproof. I'll assume you have standard road brakes rather than cantilevers or V-brakes (those pads attach a bit differently). The pads should attach to the brake caliper arms with a single allen bolt. If so, loosen the allen bolt on your current pads. Hold the pad so it won't turn while you loosen. If the pad is close to the rim, you'll need to make room to remove it either by opening the brake's quick release or removing the wheel. After you've removed one of the old pads, putting in the new ones should be obvious. KoolStop pads are designed to have the wedge shapes on the pad pointing backwards, so make sure you know which end to point forwards (it may be inscribed on the side of the pad or on the package). Position the new pad so that it contacts solidly against the full width of the rim and hits the rim flat or slightly toe-in (ie. front end first) if that is possible. Position the pad in the caliper, tighten it lightly, then squeeze the brake to see where it hits the rim. Reposition if necessary. When you're happy with the pad position, tighten it down very tightly. Often the pad will want to turn as you tighten, so hold it to counteract that turning force.

If your old pads were very worn and the brakes had been recently adjusted, you may find these pads too close to the rim or possibly even rubbing it. If so, you'll need to loosen the cable anchor bolt to readjust the pad spacing. If you loosen the cable, be sure to tighten the anchor bold very tightly.

[Zen]

I haven't looked at the brake pads yet but I definitely have the same scraping sounds. Looks like time for the Kool - Stops, I can't afford to wear out my rims.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

[RolliePollie]

Thanks, DebW! Wow, you are a great resource!!! Sounds like this is something I should be able to do.

I can't wait to ride with the new KS pads. I think I'm getting into a bad habit of trying to use my rear brakes more because I don't want to hear that front brake noise and know that my rims are getting eaten up. My rear brakes are nearly silent...I hope my front brakes will be the same!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Pretty easy and almost foolproof. I'll assume you have standard road brakes rather than cantilevers or V-brakes (those pads attach a bit differently).

I have side pull brakes on my Rivendell and we had to buy new brake shoes along with the KoolStop pads because they wouldn't fit on my existing brake shoes. So we got the set- the shoes with the KS pads.

[DebW]

I should have mentioned the one thing you can do wrong when replacing brake pads. Sometimes the shoe (metal part that holds the pad) has one open end so that the rubber pad can be easily replaced. The open end must point towards the back of the bike. Otherwise you may squeeze your brakes and have the pad fly out, leaving a bare metal shoe to contact your rim. I don't believe KoolStop pads are like this, but there is still a front and back.

[RolliePollie]

Kind of an interesting follow-up on my noisy brakes issue...

Yesterday afternoon I successfully put on my new Kool Stop brake pads. But then I noticed something. The left pad was too high and was touching the rubber on the tire. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it adjusted any lower. So I called my LBS for help. Seems that this is a problem he's seen before on Trek 1000's. I took it in and he concluded that the entire brake mechanism is machined incorrectly. The arms are just too short to reach the rims properly. His quick fix was the file down my brake pad a little...otherwise it wouldn't be safe to ride at all (rode the bike last night and I'm so impressed with the KS pads...no more horrible noise and they seemed to work better in general). Anyway, turns out the Trek rep was going to be at the shop this morning, so I took my bike back. He agreed that the brakes are faulty and they're sending a whole new set-up. Evidenlty 1000's are equipped with "wanna be" 105 brakes and they're basically junk. If the new set doesn't work either, I'm going to see if I can get them to upgrade me to 105's. My LBS is being so great about this. The owner seemed very disappointed in Trek for this design flaw. I'm just glad I noticed it before I went out riding and blew a tire!