Noisy brakes & rough front rim

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Those are the brake pads that were recommended to correct this problem.

this is not just road debris in the brake pads but slivers of metal from the rim.

Interesting. I have Kool Stop brakes pads. But I put them on to help grip in the rain, not because I had squeaky brakes, after almost having total brake failure once in the pouring rain.
If you read the info about KS pads, it says how they have little wedge shapes on their front ends, which help push off the rim debris as the brake comes down on the rim. Pretty much what I was talking about above about toeing-in. Toeing-in brakes and KS pads with wedges are both sort of like the idea behind those old "cow-catchers" that train locomotives used to have in front, to hurl cows and other "debris" off the tracks before the train ran over them.
I can't imagine having slivers of metal coming off one's rims though! Time for better rims maybe??

[silver]

Interesting. I have Kool Stop brakes pads. But I put them on to help grip in the rain, not because I had squeaky brakes, after almost having total brake failure once in the pouring rain.
If you read the info about KS pads, it says how they have little wedge shapes on their front ends, which help push off the rim debris as the brake comes down on the rim. Pretty much what I was talking about above about toeing-in. Toeing-in brakes and KS pads with wedges are both sort of like the idea behind those old "cow-catchers" that train locomotives used to have in front, to hurl cows and other "debris" off the tracks before the train ran over them.
I can't imagine having slivers of metal coming off one's rims though! Time for better rims maybe??

Lisa, to the best of my memory, when I did the research a while back, the reason that the Kool Stop pads were recommended to help with the problem was because they were made of a softer material. Is that right?

I think the problem is the combination of the stock pads and the stock rims. Just not a good combination. But these are low end rims.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Lisa, to the best of my memory, when I did the research a while back, the reason that the Kool Stop pads were recommended to help with the problem was because they were made of a softer material. Is that right?

I have not heard of KS pads being recommended to stop squeaky brakes. They are made for gripping better under wet conditions- that is why they are softer....like snow tires! But maybe they do help with brake noise- I don't know because I haven't had squeeky brakes. I do notice that the KS pads grip better and stop me faster- I had to be careful the first week to not brake too suddenly.
I do know that one can usually stop squeaky brakes (of any kind) by toeing-in the brake pads.
It is true that ALL brake pads tend to get hard and brittle over time and then they do start to squeal, and should be replaced every few years regardless, because they can't grip as well once the rubber has hardened from age.

[DebW]

Most brake pads are not perfectly aligned to hit the rim in an exact flat position when you brake. Usually when you brake, they are slightly off and either touch/skim the rim with their rear end first, or with their front end first, and then clamp down evenly with full pressure applied.

If your brake pads touch your rim first on their front end ("toe-in") as you brake, the touching part skims/cleans debris off the rim first when braking begins, and the debris does not get under the pads.
If your brakes are in "toe-out" slant, the back end of the brake pad touchs the rim first and any debris/grit/gunk on the rim gets gathered up under the pad and then mashed down between pad and rim at full brake position.
Toe-out position is also known for producing squeaky braking.

If you read the info about KS pads, it says how they have little wedge shapes on their front ends, which help push off the rim debris as the brake comes down on the rim. Pretty much what I was talking about above about toeing-in. Toeing-in brakes and KS pads with wedges are both sort of like the idea behind those old "cow-catchers" that train locomotives used to have in front, to hurl cows and other "debris" off the tracks before the train ran over them.

Lisa,

You've got it right about toe-out causing brake squeal and toe-in reducing it. But I think you've got it backwards about plowing and debris. Toe-in would tend to trap debris between pad and rim. The KoolStop wedges point backwards to scrape water and debris off the rims.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Lisa,

You've got it right about toe-out causing brake squeal and toe-in reducing it. But I think you've got it backwards about plowing and debris. Toe-in would tend to trap debris between pad and rim. The KoolStop wedges point backwards to scrape water and debris off the rims.

Oh I see what my error is!- I am thinking of the wheel as going backwards!!! D'OH! Not enough espresso!!!!!!! Right theory- wrong rotation direction.
Yes indeed- the "Toe-in" position would have the REAR end of the pad hitting the rim first, and thus clearing the rim of debris before it gets under the brake pad as it clamps down. Heck, they should really call in the "heel-in" position, shouldn't they? And yes, the wedges on the KS pads are on the REAR end of the pads.
Thanks for the correction, wouldn't want to confuse anyone!

[DebW]

Oh I see what my error is!- I am thinking of the wheel as going backwards!!! D'OH! Not enough espresso!!!!!!! Right theory- wrong rotation direction.
Yes indeed- the "Toe-in" position would have the REAR end of the pad hitting the rim first, and thus clearing the rim of debris before it gets under the brake pad as it clamps down. Heck, they should really call in the "heel-in" position, shouldn't they? And yes, the wedges on the KS pads are on the REAR end of the pads.
Thanks for the correction, wouldn't want to confuse anyone!

To avoid more confusion, the term "toe-in" is accepted to mean that the front of the pad hits the rim first. "Toe-out" is the rear of the pad hitting first. Pads should contact the rim either toe-in or flat. Toe-out often produces vibration and hence squeal. Though any pad is probably hitting flat when the brake is squeezed hard, hence the rear-facing wedges do their job of scrubbing water off the rim.

[silver]

The issue that I'm referring to on my 1000 is not just "squeaky" brakes. I agree that toe-in does correct "squeaky" brakes.

But the issue here is a scraping noise that the brakes make. When we examine the brake pads, there will be slivers of metal in the brake pads.

The Kool-Stop salmon pads were not recommended to correct "squeaky" brakes but to help eliminate the abrasion that was creating the slivers on this low end rim. The thought was that the stock pads were too hard for this low end rim.

does that make sense? two different issues

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

The issue that I'm referring to on my 1000 is not just "squeaky" brakes. I agree that toe-in does correct "squeaky" brakes.

But the issue here is a scraping noise that the brakes make. When we examine the brake pads, there will be slivers of metal in the brake pads.

The Kool-Stop salmon pads were not recommended to correct "squeaky" brakes but to help eliminate the abrasion that was creating the slivers on this low end rim. The thought was that the stock pads were too hard for this low end rim.

does that make sense? two different issues

Silver,
I see from your BikeJournal stats that you ride a LOT of miles. Maybe you deserve a rim upgrade?

[RolliePollie]

Silver - I'm having the same sound...not squealing but more like a grating sound. It's really not a nice sound. And not nice knowing that I'm wearing down my rims every time I brake! Luckily, living in a rural area, I don't have intersections and such where I have to come to a complete stop very often. I do have hills though...but usually the downhills are followed by uphills so I don't want to brake and lose my momentum.

I'll look at my brake pads tomorrow to see if they're toeing in or out. That concept makes so much sense! For a new rider like me who is only averaging about 75 miles a week right now, a little extra brake pad maintenance is ok. I think I can put up with this and stay safe through this season. Sounds like maybe upgrading the wheels and brake pads would be a good idea for next season.

[silver]

Silver,
I see from your BikeJournal stats that you ride a LOT of miles. Maybe you deserve a rim upgrade?

Lisa, this is my old bike that I'm referring to. the one that I wrecked. most of my miles are on my lovely new Madone. The old one is delegated to bad weather and nasty conditions already. I'll probably try to get some of those kool stop pads eventually, but I wont be putting any money into it.


Even though I don't have this particular problem (actually i have no problems at all) on my madone, I am longing for even nicer wheels on it....lighter....faster... Maybe next christmas....

OK finally had time to pull one of those links......

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Brake_Pa...ct_20455.shtml

[RolliePollie]

Kind of an interesting follow-up on my noisy brakes issue...

Yesterday afternoon I successfully put on my new Kool Stop brake pads. But then I noticed something. The left pad was too high and was touching the rubber on the tire. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it adjusted any lower. So I called my LBS for help. Seems that this is a problem he's seen before on Trek 1000's. I took it in and he concluded that the entire brake mechanism is machined incorrectly. The arms are just too short to reach the rims properly. His quick fix was the file down my brake pad a little...otherwise it wouldn't be safe to ride at all (rode the bike last night and I'm so impressed with the KS pads...no more horrible noise and they seemed to work better in general). Anyway, turns out the Trek rep was going to be at the shop this morning, so I took my bike back. He agreed that the brakes are faulty and they're sending a whole new set-up. Evidenlty 1000's are equipped with "wanna be" 105 brakes and they're basically junk. If the new set doesn't work either, I'm going to see if I can get them to upgrade me to 105's. My LBS is being so great about this. The owner seemed very disappointed in Trek for this design flaw. I'm just glad I noticed it before I went out riding and blew a tire!

[anaphase]

So I am thinking about replacing the pads on my Allez Elite (105s) because the stock pads seem really... well, not very good. Do you all like the Kool Stop pads? That is what I am thinking of getting.

Thanks in advance!

[Zen]

Your username gives me bad Bio 101 flashbacks