Should Men be allowed in a Women's Forum?

[colby]

Interesting question. I've seen this before in women in technology spaces. I am a member of one mailing list/chat community in particular that has faced many of these issues.

As the community was developed, it turned out it became a positive environment for beginners, advanced users, technophobes, and technophiles alike. Somewhere along the line, the community gained a reputation for positive, encouraging answers, that were also technically accurate and thoughtful. The community never excluded men, and over time, the male to female ratio on many of the mailing lists was debatable.

At several points in time, men on these mailing lists began to dominate conversation and answer many of the questions. A lot of the women on the lists fell back into "old habits" -- not answering questions, being afraid to be shot down, that kind of thing. Some of the men answered questions in very direct (not disrespectful necessarily, but matter-of-factly) tones, which served to turn a lot of the women off. One solution was to politely ask the men to respect the womens' space and the objectives of the community in general, which worked to an extent. Most of the men participating didn't even realise what they were doing, and were shocked to find out how it was received.

Another solution that was very accomodating to the "locker room" sort of mentality was to also create a womens-only sub-space for the community. This is a forum where only women are allowed. Of course it's difficult to enforce over the internet (as others have mentioned), but it did serve as an area where if a man was discovered ("outed") he was not welcome. Some women refused to participate, but it seemed to be a "best of both worlds" sort of thing. One issue faced here was transgendered/transexual people, and it was decided that gender identity (how a person identifies themselves) took precendence over biological identity (a person's physical sex). To me that's the only reasonable course of action, but it was debated -- some people see someone who is physically male but identified female as male, and no argument will change their mind.

I have participated in other strictly women-only communities where men are absolutely not allowed. While it is discriminatory, the argument for this is that most communities are male-dominated, and having a women-only community is to restore the balance by biasing heavily (exclusively) in the other direction. It would be awesome if we were able to discuss all issues in the presence of any gender without discrimination, but the unfortunate reality of our time is that we're just not there yet. Even when we do get there, it may still be nice to have gender/sex-centric issues (men don't have periods and women don't have prostates ), but the exclusion of other gender/sexes may just not be necessary or realistic.

I don't mind the male presence, but we should keep the charter of this forum in mind: womens cycling and related issues. If this forum becomes male-dominated, we will have to deal with it, but in the meantime, one or two polite and helpful men aren't going to kill us.

</soapbox>

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

(men don't have periods and women don't have prostates )

Tell that to my brother (the dorky one, not the other one). We were talking health and doctors recently and he proudly told me he regularly gets his prostate checked to avoid prostate cancer. "And YOU should get YOURS checked TOO!" he advised me. "I should??" says I. Then I had to let him know, and afterwards he said "I sure feel dumb!".
I should have told him to get a PAP smear every year....

[margo49]

.

At several points in time, men on these mailing lists began to dominate

, but we should keep the charter of this forum in mind: womens cycling and related issues. If this forum becomes male-dominated, we will have to deal with it, but in the meantime, one or two polite and helpful men aren't going to kill us.

</soapbox>

Yeah, but look how much space time and energy this "one" is taking up already.

[Pax]

Yeah, but look how much space time and energy this "one" is taking up already.

My thoughts as well. Now we have another thread about how thankful he is...perhaps it's just attention seeking behavior?

[Trek420]

My thoughts as well. Now we have another thread about how thankful he is...perhaps it's just attention seeking behavior?

Well we are an attentive, supportive bunch that's why we're here, or maybe it's the food.

Well I should shut up, log off and train or walk the dog but ooh, pie Cold apple pie for breakfast, yum...hey...this pie has no filling big hole carved outa the bottom just top crust and WTF

::: puts ice cream on top :::: there!

[Hub]

I think well -mannered fellows like Mr. Silver & Pscyclepath should be allowed.
I'm sure that we can all act witchy enough to run off any ill mannered oafs.
Pscyclepath is my brother that has posted a few times. He said the forum
is a refreshing change of pace from all the pissing contests at the male dominated forums.- Heck - here it is 'all about the bike! .

[Pedal Wench]

Well we are an attentive, supportive bunch that's why we're here, or maybe it's the food.

Well I should shut up, log off and train or walk the dog but ooh, pie Cold apple pie for breakfast, yum...hey...this pie has no filling big hole carved outa the bottom just top crust and WTF

::: puts ice cream on top :::: there!

Oh, silly girl, the ice cream goes INSIDE, to replace the missing filling. We just had to wait for the pie to cool down. The WHIPPED CREAM goes on top.

[HillSlugger]

I've tried to avoid this thread and keep my mouth shut but just got sucked in anyway. I feel that discrimination is wrong.

I need to ask: if you want to keep this a forum for women only, what criteria would you use to validate "Woman"?

Behavior: passive, non-aggressive, subservient, nurturing...does anyone actually believe any of these "traditional" descriptors to actually be valid and apply to ALL women and ONLY women?

Physical metrics: Estrogen level, breasts, female genitals, female internal organs. Let's throw out the postmenopausal women because their estrogen is too low, those who've had mastectomies, those who've had hysterectomies.

Are we going to need to pass a physical for entry?

This is a women's forum by virtue of the fact that it concerns itself with women's biking issues and is populated by (mostly) women.

[Meaux]

I've tried to avoid this thread and keep my mouth shut but just got sucked in anyway. I feel that discrimination is wrong.

I need to ask: if you want to keep this a forum for women only, what criteria would you use to validate "Woman"?

Behavior: passive, non-aggressive, subservient, nurturing...does anyone actually believe any of these "traditional" descriptors to actually be valid and apply to ALL women and ONLY women?

Physical metrics: Estrogen level, breasts, female genitals, female internal organs. Let's throw out the postmenopausal women because their estrogen is too low, those who've had mastectomies, those who've had hysterectomies.

Are we going to need to pass a physical for entry?

This is a women's forum by virtue of the fact that it concerns itself with women's biking issues and is populated by (mostly) women.

I've just been reading this one from afar, but I must say...Touche!

[East Hill]

One issue faced here was transgendered/transexual people, and it was decided that gender identity (how a person identifies themselves) took precendence over biological identity (a person's physical sex). To me that's the only reasonable course of action, but it was debated -- some people see someone who is physically male but identified female as male, and no argument will change their mind.

As long as we've settled the other issue, I will offer some levity.

A number of years ago, I worked at the Seattle Processing and Distribution Plant. For the locals to me, that's the end of the Interurban Trail on the north end, by Boeing.

One year we had a casual employee named Lei. Lei was a transgendered person, and she was physically a male, but preferred to be known as, and acted, female.

My supervisor at the time, a testosterone filled guy who wore pointy toed cowboy boots with little silver tips, could not handle this. Whilst everyone else in our pay location considered Lei 'her', my supervisor would not and apparently could not accept the idea of a transgendered person.

Me: Mark, did you want Lei to go to 040?
Supervisor Mark: No, send him to the barcode sorter.
Me: Will we be able to get her back at 1:00?
SM: Lei is not a girl. Lei is a guy.
Me: Well, Lei would rather be referred to as 'her'.
SM: I don't care. He's a guy.

Nowadays this would be considered gross discrimination, and my supervisor could have gotten sued for this, but it was the first time we had had the situation come up. We all just thought it was funny that the supervisor could not handle someone not wanting to be a man. After all, aren't men superior?

I was always so envious of Lei's hair. She had the most amazing long, thick hair. I coveted that hair. Sigh...

East Hill