Venting - way OT & alittle wordy....

[Tuckervill]

www.stophitting.com
Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishment to Love and Reason
http://www.naturalchild.org/

I don't believe in coddling, spoiling, back-talk, disrespect, running in the aisles, riding on the wrong side of the bike lane, or lack of discipline. I also don't believe adults always have it all together and I believe that children are one of the last classes of people that it's okay to disrespect, discriminate against and despise. I also do not believe in spanking/smacking/hitting/beating/corporal punishment.

My oldest child is 24, my youngest 12. Between the two, I evolved from a traditional, mainstream, spanking parent, to a non-spanking, child respecting, autonomy-granting one. The results have been the same--happy, healthy, responsible adults or near adults, with one glaring exception. My youngest son can never look back at his life and say I broke his trust by hitting him, and my oldest son can. That is something I will always regret.

My views now are very non-mainstream, and I have a rebuttal to almost every post in this thread, many of those rebuttals were developed and clarified through internet boards such as this one and reading up on the subject over the last 11 years. Since I've already BTDT, I won't debate them again. But I hope the links will help someone else see their children in a different way.

Karen

[SadieKate]

Not at all (to the hammer and nails)! Bring 'em outdoors also -- at least sometimes. Hubby and I stop for dinner after our evening rides and sit outside. For some reason, the parents seem to think that sitting outdoors gives their children free rein to charge in and out of the fenced area, play on the fountain, trample the landscaping and play chase. Last week, Bubba finally gave up and yelled at a kid who was walking though the carefully landscaped petunias to get to the water in a fountain on top of a raised bed. It gets tougher and tougher to have a nice civilized meal in public. Restaurants have become awash in kids who think the world is McDonald's play land or older girls' butt cracks and thongs. Sigh.

[slinkedog]

Okay, I am a mom of 4 kids, so I'm feeling the need to interject my opinion into a thread that seems to be dominated by non-parents.

I think someone else may have already made this point, but please realize that no one, no parent, no child is perfect. I understand the frustration with parents who don't mind their children. I get frustrated, too, sometimes. I hate it when my kids whine. They get reprimanded if they do it, and they usually don't, but since they lack the self-control skills of adults, sometimes they do whine.

I would dearly love to be able to leave the store when one of my kids decides to go postal in the produce section, but, most of the time, I have no recourse to take them home and come back and finish my shopping. Who will stay with them? What will we eat if I don't finish my grocery shopping? I imagine the same people who sneer at me as I try, while incredibly embarrassed, to get finished with upset children in tow, are the same ones who would sneer at me if I took those same kids to McDonald's in order to feed them because I couldn't finish my grocery shopping because of people sneering at me.

We all have to share this world, and teaching my children that other people are precious and important is an ongoing lesson in our house. We're trying. Please be patient. We're not all finished yet.

[Duck on Wheels]

First let me say that, however irritated I might become personally when kids go postal in my vicinity, I highly admire parents who steadfastly keep their cool, don't lash out, don't scream back, just calmly continue to say "No, you can't have a candy bar now" or whatever, and finish their shopping.

Second let me say that I do NOT have the same admiration for parents who let their kids do something truly dangerous, like playing in the street, without intervening.

Third, just to show how charming kids can be, here's the story my youngest (23) told when we came to his place for waffles this evening. As we arrived, he was putting away some gardening equipment -- mower, rake, and a wheelbarrow full of windfall apples. He said the neighborhood kids, on their way past, had asked him "Could we taste your apples?" Well, he's only renting, and had no intention of cooking up a tree-full of apples, so he said they could go ahead. They each took an apple or two, called out how tasty they were, and the littlest one trailing behind the others as they left said "Tusen takk for eplene!" (Thousand thanks for the apples). See how sweet kids can be?

[Selkie]

Well, I've been offended by unruly kids and parents who won't do anything about them, so we can call it even.

Agree w/Veronica and Jo.

I believe that being a parent is the most important job in the world. Unfortunately, I see first hand the results of "having kids" and not "raising" them. I live in the land of "overprivileged" children who are endlessly indulged (materialistic) and told how they are not to blame for their bad behavior.

I don't think anyone is criticizing TE's moms, who no doubt are excellent parents.

My parents would have NEVER let us behave in an unruly manner, no matter what kind of day they or we were having. If we acted up, we knew there were consequences (a spanking). Therefore, we did not act up. My mom had FOUR (4) kids, and she was ill the entire time I was growing up. Regardless, she taught us manners and common courtesy.

There's a difference between spanking and beating a kid. Spanking definitely served as a deterrent in my family.

[GLC1968]

While I don't like when kids are running wild and endangering themselves or others, I do recognize the difference between a parent who is embarassed or at least attempting control, and one who doesn't care.

Before I pass judgement and offer up the 'glares' that some of the mom's here are referring to, I always survey the parents as well as the kids. A mom who is clearly exasperated, doing her best, and at least trying to make peace absolutely does deserve our sympathy. A parent who is completely ignoring the situation (or even making it worse) does not. There is a difference.

Honestly (yes, I know it's not the same thing), as a pet owner, I'd expect the same courtesy. I have two young dogs/puppies that occasionally become a handful. Before some passerby tears into me about a barking dog, I'd appreciate if they noticed that I'm attempting to rectify the situation.

Common courtesy...all around...it goes a long way.

[Brandy]

Thank you for posting this Tuckervill. Unfortunately, I doubt that many people will read the links, but at least it's out there.

www.stophitting.com
Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishment to Love and Reason
http://www.naturalchild.org/

I don't believe in coddling, spoiling, back-talk, disrespect, running in the aisles, riding on the wrong side of the bike lane, or lack of discipline. I also don't believe adults always have it all together and I believe that children are one of the last classes of people that it's okay to disrespect, discriminate against and despise. I also do not believe in spanking/smacking/hitting/beating/corporal punishment.

My oldest child is 24, my youngest 12. Between the two, I evolved from a traditional, mainstream, spanking parent, to a non-spanking, child respecting, autonomy-granting one. The results have been the same--happy, healthy, responsible adults or near adults, with one glaring exception. My youngest son can never look back at his life and say I broke his trust by hitting him, and my oldest son can. That is something I will always regret.

My views now are very non-mainstream, and I have a rebuttal to almost every post in this thread, many of those rebuttals were developed and clarified through internet boards such as this one and reading up on the subject over the last 11 years. Since I've already BTDT, I won't debate them again. But I hope the links will help someone else see their children in a different way.

Karen

[DDH]

Let me say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and their own ideas on how to raise children. The ways to raise them are as diverse as the society we live in. Does the way you raise your child make the way I raise mine wrong. No it does not. Our job as parents is to give our children the life skills they will need to go out into society and become healty, productive adult members.
I do not take my child out of the store when he doesn't get his way, because I don't believe it is okay for him to be able to disrupt the things I need to do or get done by his actions. When he was small, he had a fit, it happened twice I think. I told him I would not tolerate it and I would leave him sitting if he wanted to continue, he continued and as he did, I went around the corner peeking back at him to watch him. When he looked up and I was gone, well, he stopped quickly. When he called for me I was there. He quickly learned that I would continue what I needed to do regardless if he was having a fit or not. I think he was 2 or 3. He is 11 and he still tries my patience in the store at times, but he doesn't yell or scream or throw fits. He has gotten his share of spankings, but it is not given for every thing he does. He has gotten soap in his mouth plenty of times for a curse word or back talk. He doesn't do that very often either. I don't think it really matters what you do for punishment as long as it is consistant and as long as it is just, and most of all as long as they know you love them. I cannot remember the last time I had to spank my child, or put soap in his mouth. He is not perfect by any means, he does get fussed at quite at bit at times. He is well behaved in school and so far makes straight A's, the teachers don't have problems from him, and if they do, it is handled quickly with a required apology to the teacher. He is well behaved when we go to dinner or the movies or what have you. Perfect, far from it, but neither am I. He knows my expectations and he knows when he has pushed to far and is about to get the rath of mom.
Kids will never stop trying to push to see where the line is. We were all kids once too, we remember the things we tried to get away with. We aren't all that old. We all know that we only continued to try to get away with things, sometimes we did, but most times we didn't.
My problem is with parents that don't seem to care, and where I live, I see a lot of it. I see children 3 or 4 outside with no fence, playing by themselves.
I see children who are allowed to be disrespectful, or rude, and then when I see their parents I know why. Children are not the culprits as much as parents are. Children are only doing as much or little as their parents allow. I know that there are always exceptions to the rule. There are some great parents out there that have tried everything and still seem to have troubles with their children. I see many more parents that have no business having children that have these great kids. For the most part though, children are a reflection of their parents.

[snapdragen]

Before I pass judgement and offer up the 'glares' that some of the mom's here are referring to, I always survey the parents as well as the kids. A mom who is clearly exasperated, doing her best, and at least trying to make peace absolutely does deserve our sympathy. A parent who is completely ignoring the situation (or even making it worse) does not. There is a difference.

Dog yes! Many times I've seen the "oh please someone take me away" look from an exhausted mom or dad. They usually give me a look of "I'm so sorry you have to witness this" I completely understand those times. What most of us are horrified by (imho), are the parents that stand there while "little devil child" throws him or herself around; and does nothing or close to nothing. I'm sorry, once a child is in total meltdown, telling them "You are making mommy sad" isn't going to do a darn bit of good.

When he was small, he had a fit, it happened twice I think. I told him I would not tolerate it and I would leave him sitting if he wanted to continue, he continued and as he did, I went around the corner peeking back at him to watch him. When he looked up and I was gone, well, he stopped quickly. When he called for me I was there

This is something my sister did too! Once she even got in the car and left! (Don't freak, she really just moved to where she could keep an eye on nephew, and he was probably 8 or 9)

Please don't think I hate kids - they are wonderful little creatures. They entertain me when I am eating dinner out alone. That is,once mom or dad realizes I'm not going to get miffed because junior is singing a song or wants to show me a picture they drew. (Yay for family friendly restaurants that supply crayons)

[Python]

My problem is with parents that don't seem to care, and where I live, I see a lot of it. I see children 3 or 4 outside with no fence, playing by themselves.
I see children who are allowed to be disrespectful, or rude, and then when I see their parents I know why. Children are not the culprits as much as parents are. Children are only doing as much or little as their parents allow. I know that there are always exceptions to the rule. There are some great parents out there that have tried everything and still seem to have troubles with their children. I see many more parents that have no business having children that have these great kids. For the most part though, children are a reflection of their parents.

Absolutely! In our street a couple of years ago, we had the family from hell. The eldest was accused several times of interfering with younger children but was never prosecuted because of lack of evidence, he also had a fight with his father and pushed his father down the stairs causing brain-damage - his mother refused to tell the police what her son had done (Mummy's little darling couldn't do any wrong) so the police couldn't arrest him for attempted murder and she and her husband subsequently split up, the middle son took a delight in terrifying the elderly and infirm in our street, setting the beautiful woodland behind our houses on fire killing many small animals, vandalising cars (including £1400 of damage to mine) and people's homes. The youngest, a girl, was as bad as her brother and had a mouth like a sewer. The cause? Their mother. From the time they were born she let them get their own way in everything. If they did wrong at school, she went to the school and caused more trouble. Eventually, all three of them were expelled from school and sent to a special school for problem children.

Eventually, the eldest thankfully moved in with a girlfriend and away from our street. However, the other two continued to wreak havoc on our street - one time watched by their mother - who did - nothing! By this time the whole street had had enough. Most of us are Council tenants but some own their houses privately. We formed a Residents Association and several of us installed CCTV cameras. I don't know how people deal with this type of problem in the States, but we needed to actually prove that it was these two and their friends causing the damage. Didn't take long. The upshot was the whole family were evicted from their house for anti-social behaviour.

Since then, we have heard that the youngest got pregnant (she was 14) and had an abortion. The middle son became a drug addict and because of it he had a stroke and was confined to a wheelchair for some time. He is only 19 years old. I have heard he has recently got married so the whole circle will probably start all over again.

Both parents, but particularly the mother has failed these children miserably. Seemingly, the father would attempt to discipline the kids, either by smacking them or stopping their priviledges, but the mother would intervene and contradict anything he said. It was a no-win situation, especially for the kids.

If the mother had smacked them when they were young or instilled discipline in them by stopping their priviledges etc., then they might have had a future as decent young adults. As it is, all of them suffered, especially the kids, but also the mother as she lost her husband and even yet, people see her in town and point the finger at her.

Very sad.

[CyclChyk]

Ok so I'm gonna have to go back and finish reading all the posts as when I got to the bottom of page 2 I wanted to respond to so many of you.

First I would like to say that I agree that its best I stick with dogs. I have. I'm 38 and will never have kids. Not that I don't like kids, persay. There are some that are so cute I just want to eat them up! That is for the first 10 minutes. After that, I've had enough. Go back to momma now, I'm not a kid person. Which is kinda ironic because kids typically love me. I used to teach daycare. I babysat for YEARS. But..... I have dogs and they stay in my fenced yard and I do not impose them on anyone. (Oh, and TREK, I have a neighbor who has two boys that throw rocks and sticks at my dogs! Has been doing it for over a year and the parents won't do a thing!! I'm thinking pellet gun??) Just kidding...... or am I?

And I did say that maybe I should be annoyed with the parents. Kids, after all, learn from example. And I certainly feel for the parent who is really good at being a parent, and their kid has just had a bad day. I can relate. I have bad days. But in my defense, I don't play in the road and neglect to get out of traffics way.

And I totally AGREE that kids should be allowed to be kids and let loose. But not when it puts themselves or others in harms way. Such as on a bike path where the parent just lets the kid run willy-nilly.

And as far as stores goes.... I HATE GROCERY SHOPPING! So realize the world revolves around me and shut your screaming kid up!!

[CyclChyk]

d Oh and one more thing...

What the heck is up with the stupid parents that has a kid who is crying their eyes out (nails on a chalk board but my heart breaks when I hear it). I mean really, do you honestly think that hitting them and shouting "I told you to shut up or we are going home RIGHT NOW!" is gonna make them shut up??? I don't know about you guys but I think it would make me cry more............. And they know you aren't gonna take them home!

DramaDramaDrama

Geez......
p.s. Brandy - something tells me you are one of the good moms.

p.s.s. Kitsune - very well said!

p.s.s.s. Python & Salsabike - I like your thought process

I could go on but this is getting wordy again....

[Kitsune06]

Really, honestly, I don't think any of the women here are the sorts to "never say no" etc. Biking etc are sports of discipline, and a woman with discipline tends to pass it on, consciously or not, to her kids.

(There were a bunch of things I was going to add to this thread as I thought about it today.)

I guess the 1st is that some kids really need special attention. I think most parents do the best they can with what they know- the trouble is, too many parents are kids themselves. It's a pity that biology makes it harder for people in their mid to late 30s to have kids, because I think by then you have a better idea of what's going on than in your 20s. This is mostly wishful thinking, though. My little sister had the same sort of parenting early on that I did. I was a sensitive kid and took a lot of things to heart. Mom needed just give me *the look* and I'd stop, and feel *bad*. My sis, on the other hand, was eventually diagnosed with "ODD" (Oppositional Defiance Disorder). Spanking did nothing, Verbal repremands did nothing, time-outs did nothing. It makes me sad to say that when I told my dad that I was upset because she got away with far more than I ever could, he told me "That's because we still have expectations for you." But I know they did the best they could.

The 2nd is that maybe I came off as harsh saying "Don't teach your kids with guilt". Honestly, I'm pretty sure that kits are ego-centrically minded until at least 8. The world revolves around them, and rightly so, because while they're busy developing and taking in all the new things around them, there's just too much to do to try to think about someone *else*, too, yet. Mindfulness of others comes into play later, when they begin to socially develop, and that can be anywhere from 8-12 (or later) (I think some people never get to that stage...)

3rd, Debw: It's called vasclip. and after living in all the little rural burbs I have, and hearing all the "She's a Sr. in high school and she and her BF had an accident, etc etc" stories I have... I'm SO with you on that.
Conservatives say "The government's trying to save people from themselves!"
...if people weren't so effing stupid, they wouldn't need saving.
and, fwiw, most of the kids who had accidents, that I know of, had strict 'family values'. the hippyish kids had already heard of the importance of b/c.

[DDH]

Tuckervill, Brandy, just wanted to let you know I did go to the website Tucker posted. I read it, and like I said in my previous post, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't happen to agree.

[Kitsune06]

Reminds me of a joke.

Kid: "Mommy, mommy why do I keep running around in circles?"
Mom: "Shut up or I'll nail your other foot to the floor."

[If that was in poor taste, I'll slink off to the corner and laugh quietly. I do have children, now grown, and I've never used nails on them.]

Similar to
Kid: Mommy, Mommy, Why's daddy running so fast?"
Mom: "Shut up and hand me a few more rounds; the clip's empty."

...Definately belongs in the "Good Wife's Guide" humor thread, though...