Venting - way OT & alittle wordy....

[betagirl]

One being my sister - who is an excellent mom if I do say so myself. If either my niece or nephew started to throw a conniption, she'd leave whatever she was doing, shopping, whatever, and take them home. They learned pretty quickly - if I misbehave in public, we go home and I don't have any fun.

Perfect.

Ok here I come with my behaviorism hat. Yes, our good friends BF Skinner, Ivan Pavlov, Watson, etc. All behavior is learned, period, through various forms of reinforcement and punishment. That reinforcement can be subtle, to the point the parent doesn't even realize what they're doing. When you're dealing with children, they don't have the cognitive structures in place that adults do, so yes "kids will be kids." That also makes them very black and white in their thinking. But they learn from parents, watching other kids get away or not get away with things, other parents, teachers, etc. how to act. A baby doesn't come into the world with these bad behaviors, so they come from somewhere. There are some genetic contributions, but it comes down to environment as to how those genetics are shaped.

I don't watch "Nanny 9-11" or whatever the heck it's called. But one day it was on and before I could change channels I saw the intro. The kids were crazy and yelling and mom was yelling and screaming right at them. Where did the kids learn that yelling and screaming was acceptable? Probably from mom. But she certainly was maintaining it. When it gets that bad, it becomes very difficult to get to the point the behavior stops. There's a little thing called an "extinction burst" where the kid (or adult for that matter) increases the intensity/duration/frequency of the behavior you're trying to stop. So the tantrums become exponentially worse for example. If mom or dad caves, the child learns "ok I need to have a complete meltdown to get what I want." Start the cycle again to try to stop the behavior, get to the extinction burst which will probably be even worse than the first one. Mom or dad caves....rinse and repeat. It's that extinction burst where a lot of parents can't take it, because it's really bad a lot of the time. While I can sit here and be scientific about it, I can certainly see why you'd want to give in.

Of course I've simplified humans down to behaviorism theory. But underneath all the layers of complexity of our lives, this is what is the cause of behavior, or lack of behavior. In my opinion anyway.

[Dogmama]

I work at a major research university & one of my departments is Family Studies. Graduate students with children like to let them run wild in the offices. A secretary posted the following sign:


Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy.

[Veronica]

I've "had" 420 kids.

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day. My "kids" are a little bit older, 8 - 10. I can definitely tell those who have been able to get mom and dad to cave with their behavior. They try it with me - and it gets them nowhere. It's easy for me to be consistent with the rules for 6.5 hours a day, even with 30 kids at a time. It's a lot harder to be that way 24 hours a day.

I'm not so judgemental of the parents with the wailing young kids - sub 4 years old. Anything can set them off!

It's the poor behavior of the older ones that really gets me, allowing them to play by running up and down aisles, pushing around adults, yelling at each other. Essentially playing as if they were outside. They are old enough to know what is appropriate to the setting.

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

[Brandy]

I've "had" 420 kids.

Like it or not a teacher is mom or dad for 6 hours a day.

Not the same. At all.

[Veronica]

Not the same. At all.

I think that's what I said. Maybe it wasn't clear enough.

I can definitely tell when my students have had permissive parents who did not take the time to teach them how to polite and considerate of others. The world does not revolve around any of us. It is not really "all about me." It's all about ALL of us learning to get along. A parent who does not take responsibility for teaching that concept to their children, should never have become a parent.

Veronica

[salsabike]

Not having children surely doesn't disqualify anyone from noticing some of what works and what doesn't work with respect to teaching kids how to deal well with the rest of the world. Everyone has access to the knowledge they gained watching their own parents raise them as well as different approaches they see used by friends and relatives. Thought that kind of "you have to be one to qualify" thinking went out with "You can't be a good drug counselor if you weren't a heroin addict first." Guess some people still believe that.

Having been a school psych for a chunk of years, I noticed a long time ago that by far the most disturbed and frightened/frightening kids I meet are not the ones from abusive homes but the ones from homes where the parents have abdicated and left their kids in control.

I don't think most people, childless or not, automatically judge when they see a whining, crying kid in a store (heck, I was one of those "I want that CANDY" kids myself. Come to think of it, sometimes I still am---although quieter). Kids whine, kids cry. The issue for most people, I think, is whether the parents are letting those kids ride roughshod on the people around them. And since we all share the same space, I think everyone has the right to weigh in on that one, and that all that info is genuinely worth considering. I really do.

[SadieKate]

I am now reading Talk to the Hand, The Utter Bloody Rudeness of the World Today, or Six Good Reasons to Stay Home and Bolt the Door by our beloved Queen of Apostrophe, Lynne Truss. She states in her intro:

Once you leave behind such class concerns as how to balance peas on the back of a fork, all the important rules surely boil down to one: remember you are with other people, show some consideration.

I think permissive parents forget this basic rule in an effort to not squash their darlings' potential, forgetting that the rule teaches each of us about "I and Them." The little darlings instead learn that "I rules Them. Yes, I am not a parent myself but I've taken care of neighbors' children who had the rude awakening when under my care. It has been rather funny to get reports from parents about the children behaving themselves when with me.

[maillotpois]

Veronica - who did not laugh when the kid passed gas because she was doing read aloud and it was not appropriate.

Oh liar liar pants (possibly quite literally) on fire.

[Veronica]

Oh liar liar pants (possibly quite literally) on fire.

I'm not fibbing. But I did deliberatly crack the class up saying fart several times.

Ohhhhh... and at back to school night, talking about family life (sex ed in our district) I said penis - in front of all those parents! Our sex ed curriculum is too explicit.

V.

[maillotpois]

I'm not fibbing. But I did deliberatly crack the class up saying fart several times.

Ohhhhh... and at back to school night, talking about family life (sex ed in our district) I said penis - in front of all those parents! Our sex ed curriculum is too explicit.

V.

At least you don't use "those fonts"..... do you? (We even heard about that in Hawaii!!)

[lph]

At least you don't use "those fonts"..... do you? (We even heard about that in Hawaii!!)

ok, I'm twisting my brain into little moebius strips trying to figure out what this means... plase explain?