Floyd-Results are back

[betagirl]

Just a thought on labs and science.

I have crohn's disease in my terminal ileum, where vitamin B12 is absorbed. During my fun diagnostic process, which included lots of tests that all pretty much said either "yes," "well maybe" or were negative, I had a Schilling test done to see why my vitamin B12 levels were so low. Long story short is that test came back fine, I absorb vitamin B12 just like any other healthy person. Yet my levels get dangerously low if I don't maintain a regiment of monthly injections. So while the test says I do, I obviously don't absorb B12. Taking oral supplements doesn't have the same effect as the shots. So something is off there. Have I repeated the test? Nah. Why bother really.

Just a little tidbit about test results I still think he's guilty.

[Dogmama]

3. Mass Spec Results revealed testosterone made from a plant precurser. I am sorry ladies, but as a biochemist I know mass spec is extremely sensitive and reliable, so this either means Floyd is a plant or Floyd cheated.

Now THAT is funny. Needed a laugh.

If they can tell that the testosterone is exogenous, he's screwed. I wonder how the other cyclists have managed to beat this test result in court? Maybe testing methods were not as sensitive as what we have now?

[Triskeliongirl]

Results seem inconsistent, if the T is normal. What would cause the low E? Is the actual test result published or do we have to rely on the news?

The ratio of T/E is considered more reliable than the actual T level as an indication of doping, since the absolute amount of testosterone in his urine can be influenced by the amount of liquid he drinks, but no matter how hard he tries to dilute it out, he can't change the ratio of testsosterone to epitestosterone. The ratio test is based on the fact that since epitestosterone is the precurser of testosterone, if the testosterone is naturally made in the body, this should be balanced by a similar amount of epitestosterone, for most people this ratio is 1:1, UCI allows up to 4:1 and his was 11:1. When one supplements with testosterone, the amount of testosterone relative to epitestosterone is elevated, although some avoid detection by also taking epitestosterone along with testosterone. Now it is true that some people have abnormally high T/E ratios naturally, but supposedly his other 5 samples tested at the tour showed normal ratios. It is true that alcohol consumption can effect the ratio, but why did first he claim to have had one beer, then all of a sudden he also had some Jack D, etc. (it takes a lot of alcohol to elevate the TE ratio). But, because of these issues if all they had was the elevated T/E ratio it may have been difficult to make a definitive case. But, the mass spec allows them to detect subtle differences in the isotope of carbon found in plant sterols vs human sterols. Since plant sterols are used to make testosterone in the lab, the finding of carbon isotopes in a ratio found in plants and not people is very convincing.

What bothers me now, is his lawers are making their arguments on lack of due process (leaking results to the press) vs whether he actually did it (i.e. see latest articles at velonews.com), and seem to be trying to salvage his reputation by putting questions that aren't there about the science in the minds of a public that doesn't understand the science.

[Triskeliongirl]

Now THAT is funny. Needed a laugh.

If they can tell that the testosterone is exogenous, he's screwed. I wonder how the other cyclists have managed to beat this test result in court? Maybe testing methods were not as sensitive as what we have now?

My understanding is the only test that has been beat is the T/E ratio test. I don't think they were expecting the mass spec test to be performed, since it is technically demanding and requires very expensive instrumentation.

[ChainsOflove]

In an interview way last spring, Floyd talked about how his training was completly changed and his VO2 Max results were rivaling those of L.A.

I don't think his improvment is from Doping.

It just seems that floyd is an unlikely one to drug up. Somethings not right about it.

[ChainsOflove]

I don't understand why Greg Lemond feels its his role to discredit all these other U.S. riders. I don't think its the right thing to do, as Americans they should not trash each other.

Clearly he's bitter becuase he is now old and fat, and LA and even TY made WAY more money than him. I mean you don't hear Bernard Hinault or Eddie trashing riders. GL should shut up.

[Delta7]

"why did first he claim to have had one beer, then all of a sudden he also had some Jack D"

First time I heard of the beer, whiskey was also mentioned, but anywho, so your saying the ratio and not the actual level of T is what is manipulated and thus cause a performance increase? I don't know science, but I do know numbers, so this is interesting.

Cheers.

[snapdragen]

I'm not sure where AP and the other papers got their info. The UCI press release is nowhere near the length.

http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stlev...=0&idnews=4309

I've still not seen anything official about the carbon isotope testing - anyone have a real link? Not just newpaper articles? It is the media that is reporting the exogenous testosterone. To my knowledge, the UCI hasn't confirmed it.

[maillotpois]

Thanks, Snap. Yeah, something's funky here.

[Triskeliongirl]

" so your saying the ratio and not the actual level of T is what is manipulated and thus cause a performance increase? I don't know science, but I do know numbers, so this is interesting. Cheers.

What I am saying, is that if one takes exogenous testosterone, 2 things will help, the absolute level of testosterone will go up, as will the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Floyd is arguing that since his absolute level of testosterone isn't above normal he didn't do it, however, the absolute level in urine is heavily influenced by hydration state, so this doesn't get him off the hook. However, had it also been high, it would be one more strike against him. That is why I read that some athletes dope with a patch containing both T and E that they place on their scrotum after a hard day for recovery. In general the amounts are low enough to not effect the total amount of T, or upset the ratio, and therefore go undetected.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm not sure where AP and the other papers got their info. The UCI press release is nowhere near the length.

http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stlev...=0&idnews=4309

I've still not seen anything official about the carbon isotope testing - anyone have a real link? Not just newpaper articles? It is the media that is reporting the exogenous testosterone. To my knowledge, the UCI hasn't confirmed it.

To my knowlege the UCI has not explicitly released any of the results to the general public except to say they are averse. However in this article, at least a name is attached to the source of the the carbon isotope results report:

According to various sources, Landis's "A" sample showed signs that some of the testosterone came from an outside source. Pierre Bordry, who heads the French anti-doping council, said Saturday that the lab found evidence of testosterone from exogenous sources in Landis' urine. "I have received a text message from Chatenay-Malabry lab that indicates the 'B' sample of Floyd Landis' urine confirms testosterone was taken in an exogenous way," Bordry told The Associated Press. "

From: http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html

[snapdragen]

But that's just it -- "various sources". Who are they? Have they actually read the results? Is it someone who knows what they're talking about, or is it a clerk, or the night janitor, hoping to gain a bit of the spotlight? I've seen nothing concrete from the lab itself - just "well I was told this, or texted this"

[Bikingmomof3]

3. Mass Spec Results revealed testosterone made from a plant precurser. I am sorry ladies, but as a biochemist I know mass spec is extremely sensitive and reliable, so this either means Floyd is a plant or Floyd cheated.

My husband is a chemist and was Laughing is A** off when I read this to him.

[Tuckervill]

I agree with you. What shocks me is that so many of you don't.

I'm just not that cynical. I generally trust people until they prove they can't be trusted. I think this is where me and a lot of people part ways, but that's okay. I can't live in a world where I believe EVERYONE cheats, where everyone is suspect. Just can't.

Karen

[snapdragen]

I'm just not that cynical. I generally trust people until they prove they can't be trusted. I think this is where me and a lot of people part ways, but that's okay. I can't live in a world where I believe EVERYONE cheats, where everyone is suspect. Just can't.

Karen

+1!