Are you as appalled as I am?

[Zen]

I don't think it's the money, spending money (if you have it) is great for the economy...it's the ads that come across as crass and insensitive during these times.

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun

[bmccasland]

I thought of this thread while I was talking to my Mom over the weekend.

Somewhere along the way in the conversation, Christmas gifts came up, and she asked what I thought about the idea of giving each other donations to charity - with the economy being what it is, and that she doesn't actually need anything. I told her I liked the idea, but she left it up to me on who to sponsor for her. Mummy Dearest lives in Austin, TX, so I'd like to sponsor something over there - any ideas?

[Biciclista]

a spending economy? I'm supposed to keep spending to keep Walmart afloat?
and you don't see anything wrong with that idea?
the spending economy doesn't work. There have been less skilled jobs every year in the USA for about 20 years now. Lots of jobs in retail, yeah, THAT's a great career for someone.
Do you know that saving used to be considered virtuous? that PRESIDENTS used to tell us to save money?
The proof of how artificial this idea can be seen easily. At the slightest scare, we quit spending.
why? because we don't need that stuff. People are still buying essentials. If you take a look you'll see that grocery stores aren't laying folks off.
But maybe we're not buying that third pair of shoes, that extra sweater, all those toys those kids aren't going to want after they take them out of the package?
It's all STUFF that we don't need. Look, I'm as guilty as the next person, I have more bikes, shoes, sweaters, books, and even cars than I need!

Don't spend. Save.

[Aggie_Ama]

Beth- These are all local to Austin. They get a lot of community shout outs from radio/fun runs but still do a lot of good and everyone needs donations.

Caritas of Austin is a good all around organization that helps those who need it.

Our local Meals on Wheels can always use a helping hand or penny, they are constantly needing volunteers and money. The gas prices last summer really had them worried if they could help those who needed a meal.

There is HAMM they provide health care/insurance to our thriving music scene.

In high school my local bowling organization always adopted a family from Any Baby Can.

[Biciclista]

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun

wow, thanks, Zen, that article says it all!

[Pax]

wow, thanks, Zen, that article says it all!

Ditto that.

[smilingcat]

One of these ads came on last night and I engaged DH in discussion of it. He was raised like me albeit even slightly lower middle class and views them as dumb. Offensive or appalling? Not really but he can't imagine any can give a car. He got his Grandpas old 1985 GMC with no AC for his 16th birthday in 1996. I still remember the grandpa-esque bumper stickers like plumbing union and "If you don't like the way I drive get off the side walk!"

Funny thing is he has a relative that is a self made millionaire, literally she has that much in cash in the bank then real estate worth as much. The woman is extremely frugal her husband and her made that money through smart investments and living on a depression era mindset. She has two vehicles, both purchased with cash before her husband died in 1999. A suburban and a Z71 Farm Truck, neither with any more bells and whistles than power windows.

At Christmas she gives both her children $10k or maybe it is $20k. BUT she expects her daughter to take her to all her appointments and run errands plus her husband does some small handy work. Her son is expected to move cattle, repair fences, plumbing and take cattle to auction or slaughter. So my husband still doesn't get it since they work for her generosity. She could afford to buy every child and grandchild a Lexus and have money in the bank but she never would. She might if we earned it by hauling cattle and goats plus fixing things on her ranch.

hi aggie-ama,

had to laugh cause it sounds like your "typical" millionaire next door. most are cheap. When you make it on your own, you tend to value your money far more than if you were given the money. She worked and sacraficed hard for it so when she parts with it, people are going to have to EARN it.

[Grog]

Heard an interesting commentator on the radio sometime this week, post-Black Friday, about holiday spending and the economy.

His take was that it doesn't matter whether people are spending or not from a big picture standpoint. If they are not spending, then the money in the bank is used to leverage credit for investment, which is just as badly needed right now in the USA.

He though it was actually pretty weird that the outgoing American president had told Americans to go out and spend.

[smilingcat]

the car ads. Well it sure makes me want to go out and buy one of those cars. NOT!

Affordability not the issue. It isn't about can I afford it or not. It just isn't my thang ya'know.

Really, if anyone is influenced by such ads, then maybe they need to get their head checked.

My partner gets all wound up when she sees Lambouguini (sp), Ferrari, Audi R-8 Porsche 911 turbo. Porsche 911 turbo is the cheapest, starting at mere $117k. Can't say it with a straight face. Lambo and Ferrai are not the most expensive toy on the road. Jaguar XJ-220 was a supercar. cool $1,000,000. So it can sustain 218MPH. Or McLaren F1 also at $1,000,000 What is the point?? I hear these talks from the guys at my office.

Think how many poor families you could feed and house? shaking my head...

My partner drives Toyota T100. and I drive a car from Auto-Union (not telling).

There has always been a complaint of commercialism with Xmas. "Miracle on 34th Street"

[Tri Girl]

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun

'Nuff said. And as a teacher, I see plenty of the "spoiled as a kid- spoiled as an adult" stuff. My spoiled students turn into spoiled parents with spoiled children. It's delightful what our society has turned into.
(excuse my poor grammar- I'm out of school today so my grammar button is turned off).

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

What keeps the economy going is spending. For example, if a bunch of people shop at Target this year, Target will have a good year, won't have to lay anyone off. This keeps jobs. People who have jobs are more likely to spend and continue the cycle. So every time someone with the means to do so spends money, they are helping to ward off further economic downturn.

The "experts" are actually fueling the economic downturn, by telling people it's going to get worse. This causes people to hold their money, which means less spending and more layoffs.

So, yeah, spending money allows people to keep their jobs, which allows them to keep their homes, which keeps them from becoming homeless and needing to go to soup kitchens. Which would you rather have, a job or a bowl of soup?

Well I don't agree with this. It's the basis of the theory that has been put into effect for years now, but we are now seeing where it leads. It's an over-simplified idea that is no longer working very well because of many complex factors.

First of all, the average American has OVERSPENT and has large credit card debts, car loans, mortgages, college loans, and other debts already.
They owe overblown mortgage payments which were poorly calculated at way beyond their means. Some are already losing their homes or having to sell their homes in order to downsize or rent. (I know a couple of friends already who are now forced to sell their homes, people who never had money problems before, people whose businesses have dropped off by 50% over the past year, and they simply can no longer continue making their mortgage payments- they have already gone through much of their savings trying to keep the mortgage payments going despite losing jobs and getting sick without health insurance.)
This has been going on for a while now.

Many people are without health insurance now and simply DON'T HAVE the money for it. (I can barely afford mine now at $475/month for myself). Only the wealthy can now afford to send in $100-150 per WEEK for health insurance, or those with jobs that have great benefits (such jobs are harder and harder to find nowadays). People are LOSING THEIR JOBS or are having to take two or more part time jobs (with no benefits or health insurance of course) in order to buy food and pay rent.

Sure there are plenty of people who are not yet feeling any financial pain and there are some who won't for one reason or another. Yet these are people whom I do not consider to be of average income or in average situations. They are well off. They say we should all buy more things. ....buy more things with what?- credit cards that are already over loaded with debt??
Should I get my tooth crown fixed this month and make my next health insurance payment and give my daughter $200 so she can make her rent this month between jobs, or should I go and spend that $1500 on Christmas presents?? Gee, what a hard decision!

Most Americans are in hock already up to their eyeballs (our grandparents would have been horrified by the debts people now considered 'average').
And the solution is to spend more, charge more new stuff on our credit cards and take out more new car loans? Sounds lovely, but it doesn't sound much like the planet I live on.

[Eden]

Yeah - I can't agree that spending more will help our economy either...
especially not spending at big discount stores like Wal-Mart or Target...

Yes, technically those places create jobs, but they are low paying, often benefit-less jobs that cannot support a family.... If you buy from those places you are mostly sending your money overseas and into the pockets of the few very rich people who own those companies (or at very least large amounts of their stock...)

That we no longer have much real manufacturing in this country is a more of the problem... we don't make what we buy any more, which means fewer jobs that require a skill and pay better. If you really feel you should buy something to support the economy at least try to find something that was made here and buy it from a local small business.

[Zen]

Do you know that saving used to be considered virtuous? that PRESIDENTS used to tell us to save money?

When I was in elementary school we had stamp books, kind of like those for S & H Green Stamps, but these were for Savings Bonds.

Not a bad idea.

[Flur]

people whose businesses have dropped off by 50% over the past year

Why did their businesses drop off?

As I stated above, people who have the means to do so should spend. When I said that I did not mean that people who do not have the means to do so should find the means by leveraging credit. DH and I are holding back on quite a few things right now because I don't have a job. We don't have the means. But I expect that I'll be getting a job in January (we have two major corporations merging here in MN and that means work in my field), at which time we'll probably be spending more (we'll also go back to out normal saving pattern, which means saving more too). I do shop online, but I make an effort to buy local and to stay loyal to stores that have been good to me. We still eat out, albeit less, at our favorite local restaurants that cook with local foods, thus supporting the local farmers and restaurant owners here. If everyone like my husband and I stopped eating out and shopping, there's a good chance some of the restaurants and local stores would have to close their doors or lay off staff. Choosing to patronize these places has nothing to do with an idealistic view of what types of jobs I want people to be able to keep, it's the over-arching fact that more people out of jobs hurts the economy, no matter what jobs they had to begin with.

For the record, I said Target, not Walmart. It was an example, not an instruction. But, also for the record, Target is a local company where I am, and they employ a huge number of people at all levels in many areas, from marketing to branding to tech to fashion development to finance to the retail people you see in the stores. Same with Best Buy and 3M. If these three companies have a bad year it will be a horrible hit for the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. So you can bet that I'll be buying my husband's Christmas present from Best Buy, wrapping it in paper from Target and using 3M tape to seal the edges.

[Flur]

Yeah - I can't agree that spending more will help our economy either...
especially not spending at big discount stores like Wal-Mart or Target...

Yes, technically those places create jobs, but they are low paying, often benefit-less jobs that cannot support a family.... If you buy from those places you are mostly sending your money overseas and into the pockets of the few very rich people who own those companies (or at very least large amounts of their stock...)

I can't speak for Walmart, but I can say this is absolutely not true for Target. Trust me, my husband (who works for Target, along with most of our local friends) does not have a low-paying, benefit-less job that can't support a family. It's supporting both of us right now, and has been since July. And if we had kids, we'd still be getting by without my income. And I've gotten my benefits through Target since we moved here for him to work at Target 4 years ago. They're pretty good, actually.

Target's a public company. That means that anyone can buy stock in it, not just the rich. Check your 401k, there's a good chance that Target stock is included in one of your mutual funds, which means YOU own Target.