OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

[spazzdog]

I know this is WAY off topic of cycling... and I don't open this discussion to offend. We played a bit with the politics of the current war (Irac) in another thread.

I broach this topic because I so respect the views of all of you.

I've just watched the Showtime special "Our Fathers" about the Catholic pedophilia scandal. Let me preface with I am not Catholic. My partner is. I live in the Boston area.

I am gay.

The sociatal backlash has been on homosexuality in the priesthood. My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

As a "homosexual", I would never, have never wanted, needed, lusted after a child, nor has anyone I know in the gay community, male or female.

Y'all kinda know me. I don't start these "serious" topics on a whim.

What are your views? There are lots of moms here... I assume a certain percentage of Catholics... not that I believe pedophilia is restricted to the Catholic religion.

Victims, friends of victims, how far do the circles of this particular pebble flow?

spazz

[Justina]

Hey umm ... I'm not catholic either, in fact I'm not anything but a heterosexual? woman with a fairly strong sex drive. My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them???? It would be interesting to know "if " were the preists allowed openly to express their normal sexuality would the rate of child molestation go down? They are human beings with all the same weakness after all . There will always be perverts where ever there are kids. ( sad but true )I am fairly sure that if you locked me up in a female prison for the rest of my life or for that matter a good long while ( whatever that is LOL ) I would probably get real interested in the ladies. like I said I have a fairly strong sex drive ( like most men Hmmmm? ) Masurbation is fun but does lack a critical element of human contact.....P.S call me liberal " GASP! but I don't have a problem with homosexuality in fact I think It might just be a normal expression of one persons love and attraction to another.Pedophilia on the other hand is not cosentual sex, it is molestation and rape (big diffrence.)

[RoadRaven]

Mum here - age range currently 7yrs - 17 yrs

There is no way I have ever associated homosexuality and paedophilia as intrinsically linked

My teenagers have brought home gay teenage friends of both genders and at no time have I considered my younger children as being in any "danger" despite numerous rough-housing games

Most of my kids have also had a gay teacher at some time or other (and that is just the teachers I have known about) and at no time have I been concerned or "afraid" for their safety... in fact, one of the teachers was the most creative and in tune with kids that they have ever had!

People who get the two "issues" or "ways of being" confused are archaic dinosaurs who cannot admit to themselves that there are many ways of being human, and the safety of our children comes down to morals and mental health and any link to gender preference is purely coincidental.

Spazz, I know you can't 'catch' gayness, can't 'make' or 'turn' someone gay...
THEY (who make such ill-informed, judegmental and innaccurate statements) are dinosaurs, are blind, are crazy, and should shut their mouths REAL tight.

I don't trust any religion that disempowers a minority, and the history of Catholisicism is not a healthy one regarding women or the 'uneducated'. I believe the fault lies with the fear of sexuality within the hierarchy of the church. Gayness or non-gayness is completely irrelevant to the issue of someone being a paedophile.

[Irulan]

The father of my son's best friend went and laid himself in front of a train the day the local preist molestation scandal broke in the newspaper. He was a victim as were many men in his circle. His wife is a very brave woman: she has been very forthcoming and public about her husbands abuse and the lack of accountability by the church. She was on Macniel/Lehrer a few months ago, anyone catch it? ( one of those PBS news shows) She is one of the main plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the diocese, which of course has declared bankrupcy.

Me - angry about the continutal assosciation between pedophiles and gayness which is just wrong. Spokane is the home of the local mayorial scandal which doesn't help. It is good to see that people are seperating the sexualtiy from the abuse of power issues. While I am not gay, having being raised by two closeed until I was almost an adult gay people gives me a comfrotableness with it that I think some people lack. There were problems in my home but it was due to bad behavior and not inherent sexuality of my parnets.

more later, have to go rafting.

a good book on abuse of power in the church is called The God Game.

[Trek420]

I didn't see or TIVO the film. Struck a nerve, Sapzz?

$0.50 tour of me, Gay and out forever - over 30 years, no kids that I know of, 2 neices and 1 nephew all grown, Jewish but not observant and some of my best friends and all of my ex'es are Catholic. Hmmmm.

I am sick of generalizations like blaming societies ills on "drug addicts, accordion players, and homosexuals..." but I think that most people "get it" today that child molesters and LGBT people are totally different.

In todays political environment there are those who use fear based arguments "the gays and lesbians are coming, lock up the women and children, protect your marriage!" and I'm just not gonna go there about that.

Just speaking personaly gimme a break. I like kids and kids like me but I simply can't imagine any sexual interest in a child and more important I think there is a special place in hell for anyone who'd hurt a child.

Don't get me started...I think I'd better go for a bike ride now.

[spazzdog]

Thanks for all the input.

I know films are films, i.e. stuff gets "dramatized" or "sensationalized", but this film did strike a chord. Living here outside Boston I was inundated with the news accounts and then watching this film... it's all so sad.

I didn't reference my own sexual orientation for any reason other than to point out that, for me, hearing the uneducated or ill informed blame the abuse on "gay" priests made me nuts. These men weren't gay - they were/are predators. They could've had relations with persons their own age had they so chosen.

The Vatican could've handled the entire thing differently...

And of course, in my ideal little world, there is no war or hunger

Let's use this thread for those taboo subjects one doesn't discuss over dinner... I am interested in and value your input. And thanks to Admin for allowing this thread to keep flying.

spazz

[singletrackmind]

Me? I don't believe in any god. I'm 37 and stay at home with my 2 year old boy and 9 and 12 year old step-daughters. I'm an artistic, straight, introverted, boring mid-american woman and I miss mom's homemade macaroni and cheese and buttermilk pancakes which I make but never turn out as good.

Gay and straight seem the exact same to me, just the preference in opposite vs. same sex is the difference. If I am incorrect in this someone please tell me and give me reasons, thoughts and ideas as to why so I can ponder. I would never think of one or the other to be more likely to be pedophiliacs individually. As a whole, it seems there would be more straight pedophiles based sheerly on number.

I sure wish people would worry about more important things than which consenting adult enjoys the companionship of which other consenting adult.

I cannot believe priests could find any right in using any child in a sexual manner. They certainly have the opportunity put before them as authoritarian figures to these boys but how can they commit such heinous acts?? I can see how a boy would feel they had to go along with what these people who they've been taught to revere wish of them-but how can a priest abuse his power in this manner above all??? I was about to ask if they really believe they are not committing a gay act because of the age of their same-sex partners but I don't want any of you to think I think pedophilia is a gay act because IT IS NOT!! Yes, some changes do need to be made in the chuch so that priests can find their adult pleasures-with ADULTS!! That or castrate them, though my humpy little boy dog doesn't seem to notice a lack of testicles in the slightest so I don't know if this works or not.

My step-daughter's 3rd grade teacher is gay and the best teacher she's had thus far. He's gifted with his kids and has been recognized by the state for his good work. I would be honored to have him teach my son as well-he's quite good at it. His ability has nothing to do with his orientation as is true of people straight and gay world over.

[Donna E Mobile]

[QUOTE=Justina] My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them????

I think some become priests hoping to be cured, others because the children they want will be available, others, as you describe, give in to temptation while living a life that is unnatural for them. I doubt there is a single, predominate reason why priests do this stuff

In my little value system:
Pedophilia is an abomination.
Covering up the crimes of others makes one an accessory.
Being gay has nothing to do with pedohilia or protecting pedohiles.

[bcipam]

I totally agree, Being gay has nothing to do with pedophilia. The monsters that prey upon children do it not because of a certain sexual orientation but because of the weakness of children. These person are weak themselves and molesting children is the only way they can dominant.

I believe somewhat that many of these men have gone into the priesthood because they had a belief this was a way to cut off their deviant sexual fantasies and desires. The priesthood teaches discipline and these men were seeking control over their feelings. The problem of course is that it actually placed them in a position to act on their feelings. Everyone trusts priest. People trust them with their children. Children are taught at an early age to respect and trust a priest. Long story short, molestations occurred and it was so wrong for the Church to allow these men to go unpunished.

If I have another criticizm of the Catholic Church, it's that they place too much power in their priests. Priests are just men, not any different from any other man. Although clergy should be respected, they do not stand above any one person, we are all equal (this includes gays and straights) in the eyes of God. As men, priest have the ability to sin and the Church body needs to wake up and realize this. What self-respecting parent would allow their sons (and daughters) to go off on over night camping trips etc with a 40 year old guy and no one else. Because he is a priest it's OK? We all have the ability to sin. What the fear of God does is keep us from acting on temptation and those desires. It's hard, even for the most discipline among us.

[Irulan]

if you read the details, plenty of women have been abused by priests too. It may not be the same deal as pedophilia, but it's certainly poeple with power taking advantage of other's vulnerablitlies.

irulan

[bcipam]

Spazz:

Getting into the gay/straight thing... I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight. I am also a conservative Evangelical Christian which means I have a literally belief in the bible.

OK that said, on both sides of the coin, there are people who choose to past judgement on other people. I realize there are "bible-thumpers" that give all us Christians a bad name. Say you are a conservative Christian and almost everyone thinks I like Jerry Falwell. I don't and he doesn't represent the majority of Christian any more that Rev. Jesse Jackson speaks for Afro-Americans. In addition, I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community. They are, however, a very vocal, and intolerant group of people, not any different then Falwell's followers.

I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith. Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church).

I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex. That's just wrong, no matter who you are. Does that mean I've never had a one night stand? No, I've sinned. I'm human so not perfect and will continue to sin the rest of my life but as a Christian, I'm trying to do better; to be a better person. I do know and understand that casual sex is wrong.

God is a kind God, but he is also a very strick parent. The rules are set (i.e. 10 commandments and the bible) and he asks that we follow them. Failure to do so will lead to punishment (ie rejection from the Kingdom of Heaven). But we do have the choice to reject his rules. We just need to realize there is a consequence.

Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion. And everyone has had great input. I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes).

[snapdragen]

Spazz, I think I know what group you are talking about. Fred Phelps is the leader I believe. I remember them hanging around the Pride Festival a couple of years ago. Very mean hearted people, nothing Christian about them. Their website is enought to make you vomit.

They also hate the country of Sweden not quite sure of the reasoning. They claim the tsunami in Indonesia was God's wrath upon the evil Swedes. (Evidently a lot of swedish people take holiday in Indonesia)

[Trek420]

bcipam writes and so we're

"I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight."

All well and good! As for me I can't even ride my bike straight. I hope you don't think anyone who is gay wants to change any of that, we don't.

We think you're fabulous just the way you are.

"I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community."

Actually, you are wrong, yes they do represent me and I'm proud of them.

Just how flamboyant do we get to be?

How much is too much?

You might see me, work or ride with me and never know I'm gay. I look like any other 50 year old gal out there...except with waaaaaay better legs, thanks TE gals.

But what rights I have were won by folks who could not "pass" as straight, frankly by butch D*kes and Nelly men. They had nothing to loose, they couldn't hide or pass for straight they fought back. I love them.

"I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith."

Good, I'm glad to hear that you do have a spiritual path, me too. From what I've read of Christianity I appreciate the teachings.

Taking a deep breath, counting to 10, thinking happy thoughts about this board. OK. I'm Jewish, they call it Judeo/Christian for a reason. I'm hearing you say that marriage is a Christian ideal? I'm glad you feel that way, that it's an ideal but ya didn't invent it ;-)

Uh, I'm not observant or anything I even eat shrimp (see thread above) and I'm not going to debate scripture with you because I'll loose. Our calendar starts 3,760 years and three months *before* Christ was born. Christ was a Jew, the last supper was a Passover meal, we go back a bit.

I've always felt that for one to call oneself a Christian you should understand a bit about our Jewish faith just like for one to know where you are going you gotta know where you've been. But then that's just me.

Marriage is practiced in other religions, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Muslim all have the ideal of commitment to another it's not just a Christian thang. I think it's a value we all share worldwide, a human thing.

And yes there are millions of Gay Christians and those of us who practice other religions too. I'm getting the feeling that some think it's mutualy exclusive like if you're Gay you can't be religious.

"Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church)."

Yes, my parents were married in City Hall, happily married for 62 years. My Dad died last year.

Ask a million gay people and you'll get a million different answers. I'm just speaking for me, it's not the commitment ceremony, I can do that without any states permission. It's not the toasters and blenders you get, I can do that too although a blender would be nice. I got enough toasters recruiting straight gals (I am soooooooooooooooo kidding, really. Just could not resist the jab) but please continue to send the fondue sets ;-)

You can call it marriage, civil union, call it PBJ on toast, whatever you want I don't care what you call it. I do care about the thousands of rights priveleges and yes, responsibilities that come with it.

Should I be so lucky to find the gal o' my dreams to ride off into the sunset with were talking about the right to make medical decisions, I know people kept out of hospital rooms while their partners lay mortally ill, who lost their homes because they were considered "legal strangers", protecting the custody of kids and so on.

"I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex."

I'm sorry to hear about the divorce although I know sometimes it's for the best.

Our conundrum in my community it seems to be the argument is made that we shouldn't marry is that we are considered promiscuous, but folks don't allow us to be "civilised" so you see round and round that goes.

Well, give us the right to marry or whatever you want us to call it and let's see what happens. Bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. Don't know the figures on average but my long term relationships have lasted longer than any of my brother's 3 marriages.

"Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion."

Me neither, me too. Didn't take it as preaching at all, thankful for the space to share oppinions and beliefs and to hear yours. Not meaning to make this forum or even this thread a debate about Gay rights, just one gals oppinions and there are lots more important things to do like protect kids and....just get out and ride.

"I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes)."

there are things other than bikes?

[susan.wells]

My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

This issue really touches home. My oldest son is homosexual and I absolutely detest when people somehow connect homosexuality with pedophilia. Nothing could be farther from the truth.