Gender and pro cycling

[spazzdog]

I just read a very interesting article in the June issue of Bike magazine called Venus Envy

The article really bothered me. Its seems a transgender woman (M->female) took up mtn biking. She got really good, started competing as an amateur, then as a pro. Some pro women protested her right to compete (not when she was amatuer, and only when growing talent threatened their podium finishes), she was suspended. Reinstated by Canada's IOC and other governing bodies she still gets dissed when she podiums.

Now granted, my views may be a bit different than some... I've lived in the gay/lesbian/transgender community in one way or another for more than 20 yrs. When I played rugby, my team had a M->F transgendered person on our team. We got boycotted at a tournament, but surprisingly the tournament upheld her right to play... and this was in the early '80s.

This story really got to me for the following reasons:

• mtn biking started, and was for yrs a unisex anti conformity thing
• the drugs the subject took to "become" female made her weaker, not stronger
• the whole idea that there is a "guy" way of viewing a course is ridiculous to me, especially coming from pros
• it's 2005 for gosh sake!

There's more, but I am really interested in other folks views, in cycling or any other sport for that matter.

spazz

[Melody]

There's more, but I am really interested in other folks views, in cycling or any other sport for that matter.

spazz

Spazz, I agree with you, but I'm also a very open person. I'm bi myself and when I worked at Microsoft, I was a member of GLEAM (Gay/Lesbian/Bi/Transgender Employees At Microsoft) and was active locally.

I just personally don't get the discrimination. :/

Mel

[spazzdog]

THe article is very good... it takes a sympathetic view of her position. I'd recommend reading it.

This forum has such a great mix of women of different lifesyles, ethnicity, cycling experience, cycling goals... many have played other sports, or no sports at all.

I just thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss...

Discrimination confuses me too... all kinds of discrimination. It seems (and I know this is a very simplistic answer) to always be fear/ego based.

spazz

[singletrackmind]

Maybe they are under the impression that all you have to do is velcro some melons on and voila! woman???

On that train of thought maybe these "they" people feel they are competing with a man decorated with some baubles?

I don't know much about transgender stuff (I know there's a heck of a lot more to it than velcro and baubles) but if she's truly got girl capability and no longer has "man strength" then the theys need their train derailed and reset.

Who you are inside is who you are whether you like it or not so you might as well BE who you are.

[MightyMitre]

I live in Brighton, which is pretty much the unofficial gay capital of England. Each year we have a HUGE pride march in August which attracts thousands of people and it's fantastic. A lot of shops and restaurants round here sport the rainbow badge in their windows, there are a lot of gay clubs, the best being called Cruise (which is I think is a great name for a club.) Gay men and women are very open here, holding hands, kissing, doing the kind of things everyone does. I love living here - mainly for the fantastic diversity of people.

There was a case a few years ago in England about Time Trialling, where among other things the regulations specify you provide your gender as at birth, which would obviously be problematic for a TG competetor. I didn't follow the story right to the end, but basically the girl in question argued that although born male she was now female and should therefore compete against other women, not men.

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

In my current ignorant state, I could understand how, if a girl found herself on the startline with someone who was TG - they may be suspicious that the TG rider may have an unfair physical advantage because they still have male genes.

Would this really be the case?

[Melody]

My only questions about a transgender competetor just goes to show my ignorance on the subject.

There's no shame at ignorance. It just means you don't know.

Despite surgery wouldn't a TG rider still physiologically be male and therefore be stronger? For example, despite gender reassignment, a male heart and male lungs are probably larger than women's and could work harder/have greater capacity. I don't know enough about the process, but despite hormone treatment wouldn't a TG rider still have stronger muscles that could develop larger than women's?

Nope. Without the continued testosterone in the system, the muscles begin to atrophy and it requires a considerably more amount of training and exercise for them just to keep what they had. Add in estrogen and muscle strength goes down. Remove the testosterone factory, and it goes poof. (sorry about any mental images )

In my current ignorant state, this is what would concern me if I found myself on the startline with someone who was TG - the idea that they may have an unfair physical advantage because they have male genes.

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.

Now, I've got am FTM (Female to Male) friend and he's the opposite. He's of small stature, but strong muscles, which would give him an advantage in some sports.

Mel

[slinkedog]

Well, the only reason I would see for there to be a problem is with the possibilities that MM stated. But if the hormones equal out or even diminish the aerobic/muscular advantage that a biological male would have, then who cares??

[MightyMitre]

Actually, they're at a disadvantage. Most TGs have bigger bone mass/density, and smaller (or equivalent) muscle mass/density. Thus, the power to weight ratio is lower. This doesn't mean they're all like that, but most of 'em will be.
Mel

Never really occured to me but that would make sense...

Certainly in the UK it can be a very long and tiring battle, taking years, to even to get to the first discussions with doctors about surgery, so I'm guessing that the guts, sticking power and determination someone would need to undergo reassingment would spill over into the sports arena.

People may sneer at a TG competitor on the podium and make claimes that is just a 'boy with boobs' - but could they claim to have the same level of deterimination and committment...?

[bounceswoosh]

I just read a very interesting article in the June issue of Bike magazine called Venus Envy

The article really bothered me. Its seems a transgender woman (M->female) took up mtn biking. She got really good, started competing as an amateur, then as a pro. Some pro women protested her right to compete (not when she was amatuer, and only when growing talent threatened their podium finishes), she was suspended. Reinstated by Canada's IOC and other governing bodies she still gets dissed when she podiums.

*snip*

I dunno ... am I the only one who's wondering if this is really fair? How often do people beat the pros in the very first year they compete? Especially people who smoke?? I absolutely agree that hormones can do a number on you -- anyone who's taken hormonal birth control methods must know that -- but on some level, she still has her old body. She still has the same brain. If her heart and lungs were bigger than a woman's before surgery, I seriously doubt they shrank; I don't think it works like that (but I'm no expert).

Then again ... as the article points out, there's plenty of confusion about what sex really means. (As I understand it, one can identify oneself as female in gender while still having male body parts, or vice versa; "sex" is another matter.) We'd like to think that male and female are the only choices, but there are grey areas, like people who've always thought they were women because of outward appearances but are physically male on the inside. And then there are people who are physically simply predisposed to being better at certain things. Certainly a tall person has an advantage in volleyball; a lean person has an advantage in long-distance cycling; every sport has its key characteristics. Some sports even have weight classes. So I guess the question is, what does the governing body consider "fair enough" for a given sport.

I've even wondered if women shouldn't compete against men, in general ... I don't know that women would ever close the gap, but I think they'd narrow it considerably. I've seen what happens when individual women are forced to compete against men; they get better. It's just a human thing; once one person breaks a record, others swiftly follow. That being said, if everyone were competing together, women athletes would almost certainly get even less support than they get now. Maybe women as professional athletes would just disappear. So that's pointless.

So where was I? Oh, right. If I think any one thing about all this, it's that it hilights the fact that we never compete on an even field. The question is, what boundaries will we set on the spread of the field? It's clear that Michelle would be at a disadvantage competing against pro men; the question is, is she at an unfair advantage competing against pro women? I don't know that medical science has done enough studies of TG women to answer that question.

[spazzdog]

Bounce, though I understand your wondering at the "fairness" of it and at the concept of "level playing fields", I'd ask you to consider this:

Michelle, the cyclist under discussion, is a big woman... 5'10" or 5'11", 180 lbs and extremely athletic. She is lesser is stature, due to the female hormones, than she was as a male. I would ask that you look at a few of our U.S. collegiate womens basketball teams. Women of equal size and athletic prowess, though in a different sport. I'm guessing that their heart and lung capicity is probably comparable due to their lives playing in a sport also dominated by men... meaning they created their level playing field by raising their game.

I firmly believe that, given the talent and the willingness to dedicate oneself to a sport, a woman has as much of an opportunity to be as good as any guy.
That is not to say we women will necessarily make the same money... but we can be as good. It's society at large that continues to place our monetary worth as "less than".

Another athlete... a male, wanted to be on the national synchronized swimming team. He got so much crap. I can't remember the outcome, but I heard about it and said "more power to him". We should be free to pursue our passions... sport is a free expression and should be free of gender limitations, discrimations and preferencial treatment.

God knows if, at 50 yrs of age, I suddenly popped up with enough talent (due to hard work) to be competitive on the amateur road racing circuit, questions would be asked, accusations made. It's sad really.

As to Michelle's perceived advantage in the womens field, I'm with Missy Giove. I believe her quote was "Quit bi#$ing and get off the brakes!"

spazz - hoping she made sense with that tome of blather

[susan.wells]

I have to buy the magazine and read the article. My interest has been piqued. Thanks for posting this spazz!

Susan

[Melody]

God knows if, at 50 yrs of age, I suddenly popped up with enough talent (due to hard work) to be competitive on the amateur road racing circuit, questions would be asked, accusations made. It's sad really.

Any time something goes outside of what most consider "the norm" eyebrows shoot up, questions start being asked and acusations levelled. Look at what's happened in road cycling with all of the acusations against Lance and others. "How can a man who once had cancer ..." :|

The question of how fair a competition is always comes up. I too agree that women, if they put their mind to it, can do anything a guy can, but it comes to a question of will power. Unfortunately, society doesn't help us in that regard.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step-daughter Alex a few years ago. She was over visiting and telling me that she doesn't think she wants to go into science or math. Understand that Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math.

Needless to say, I was livid. If I was anywhere near where her school I would have reamed him. To tell someone something like this is just wrong.

I told Alex that she could do anything that she had the willpower to accomplish. That things could be difficult, but achieving the goal is that much sweeter because of the struggle.

Unfortunately, the world isn't fair. The best thing we can do is try to make the most of what we're given. Think of those who've gotten cancer and beat it or some other disease such as MS or diabetes and fight and struggle to make the most of their lives instead of laying down and saying "it's not worth it."

We have within ourselves to be the best we can be, if we're willing.

Mel

[DirtDiva]

Thanks for posting those links singletrack - interesting reading. Would be interested to read the article in Bike magazine too. Kudos to Ms Dumaresq - it's not like there are a whole lot of transgendered people out there providing role-models in sports.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step-daughter Alex a few years ago. She was over visiting and telling me that she doesn't think she wants to go into science or math. Understand that Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math.

Needless to say, I was livid. If I was anywhere near where her school I would have reamed him. To tell someone something like this is just wrong.

I'll go kick his arse myself. Or perhaps I'll roll up my science degree and use that to knock some sense into the idiot... How could a teacher say that to a student?!? Might have to roll up my teaching diploma and put it in the other hand...


Total aside:
Hey there MM. I'd forgotten you were from Brighton. Was in your neck of the woods on bank holiday. Not bad (except for the bit where I forgot to bring the sunscreen).

[Trek420]

Melody posts "Alex is _very_ smart, but after she asked her teacher about it, he told her that she shouldn't worry about it since girls aren't very good at science and math."

This is outrageous, he needs to find another line of work one that has no contact with kids.

A woman I know who is a scientist was once told by her college counselor "you should major in chemistry, it's more like cooking"

[MightyMitre]

A woman I know who is a scientist was once told by her college counselor "you should major in chemistry, it's more like cooking"

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

People should be allowed to do what ever they want to do. If a girl wants to be a coal miner or a lumberjack for example then let her.

However, I think there's different jobs that men and women are better at. I've been doing a lot of job seeking lately and 95 % of the peolpe I've come across working for recruitment agencies, have been women. These are commission based jobs so a lot of them work very hard and are very motivated, but helping people find a job / career calls for a lot of the skills that women are good at - listening, having empathy and being good at talking!

As this thread is all about tolerance and acceptance I'm not going to start 'boy bashing'. They're great too.... most of the time



O/T
Hi tlkiwi - yeh, last Monday was great - v.sunny. Are you over here for work or for hols?