Ditto that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
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Ditto that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
hi aggie-ama,Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama
had to laugh cause it sounds like your "typical" millionaire next door. most are cheap. When you make it on your own, you tend to value your money far more than if you were given the money. She worked and sacraficed hard for it so when she parts with it, people are going to have to EARN it.
Heard an interesting commentator on the radio sometime this week, post-Black Friday, about holiday spending and the economy.
His take was that it doesn't matter whether people are spending or not from a big picture standpoint. If they are not spending, then the money in the bank is used to leverage credit for investment, which is just as badly needed right now in the USA.
He though it was actually pretty weird that the outgoing American president had told Americans to go out and spend.
the car ads. Well it sure makes me want to go out and buy one of those cars. NOT!
Affordability not the issue. It isn't about can I afford it or not. It just isn't my thang ya'know.
Really, if anyone is influenced by such ads, then maybe they need to get their head checked.
My partner gets all wound up when she sees Lambouguini (sp), Ferrari, Audi R-8 Porsche 911 turbo. Porsche 911 turbo is the cheapest, starting at mere $117k. Can't say it with a straight face. Lambo and Ferrai are not the most expensive toy on the road. Jaguar XJ-220 was a supercar. cool $1,000,000. So it can sustain 218MPH. Or McLaren F1 also at $1,000,000 What is the point?? I hear these talks from the guys at my office.
Think how many poor families you could feed and house? shaking my head...
My partner drives Toyota T100. and I drive a car from Auto-Union :D (not telling).
There has always been a complaint of commercialism with Xmas. "Miracle on 34th Street"
'Nuff said. And as a teacher, I see plenty of the "spoiled as a kid- spoiled as an adult" stuff. My spoiled students turn into spoiled parents with spoiled children. It's delightful what our society has turned into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen
(excuse my poor grammar- I'm out of school today so my grammar button is turned off).
Well I don't agree with this. It's the basis of the theory that has been put into effect for years now, but we are now seeing where it leads. It's an over-simplified idea that is no longer working very well because of many complex factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flur
First of all, the average American has OVERSPENT and has large credit card debts, car loans, mortgages, college loans, and other debts already.
They owe overblown mortgage payments which were poorly calculated at way beyond their means. Some are already losing their homes or having to sell their homes in order to downsize or rent. (I know a couple of friends already who are now forced to sell their homes, people who never had money problems before, people whose businesses have dropped off by 50% over the past year, and they simply can no longer continue making their mortgage payments- they have already gone through much of their savings trying to keep the mortgage payments going despite losing jobs and getting sick without health insurance.)
This has been going on for a while now.
Many people are without health insurance now and simply DON'T HAVE the money for it. (I can barely afford mine now at $475/month for myself). Only the wealthy can now afford to send in $100-150 per WEEK for health insurance, or those with jobs that have great benefits (such jobs are harder and harder to find nowadays). People are LOSING THEIR JOBS or are having to take two or more part time jobs (with no benefits or health insurance of course) in order to buy food and pay rent.
Sure there are plenty of people who are not yet feeling any financial pain and there are some who won't for one reason or another. Yet these are people whom I do not consider to be of average income or in average situations. They are well off. They say we should all buy more things. ....buy more things with what?- credit cards that are already over loaded with debt??
Should I get my tooth crown fixed this month and make my next health insurance payment and give my daughter $200 so she can make her rent this month between jobs, or should I go and spend that $1500 on Christmas presents?? Gee, what a hard decision! :cool:
Most Americans are in hock already up to their eyeballs (our grandparents would have been horrified by the debts people now considered 'average').
And the solution is to spend more, charge more new stuff on our credit cards and take out more new car loans? Sounds lovely, but it doesn't sound much like the planet I live on.
Yeah - I can't agree that spending more will help our economy either...
especially not spending at big discount stores like Wal-Mart or Target...
Yes, technically those places create jobs, but they are low paying, often benefit-less jobs that cannot support a family.... If you buy from those places you are mostly sending your money overseas and into the pockets of the few very rich people who own those companies (or at very least large amounts of their stock...)
That we no longer have much real manufacturing in this country is a more of the problem... we don't make what we buy any more, which means fewer jobs that require a skill and pay better. If you really feel you should buy something to support the economy at least try to find something that was made here and buy it from a local small business.
When I was in elementary school we had stamp books, kind of like those for S & H Green Stamps, but these were for Savings Bonds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
Not a bad idea.
Why did their businesses drop off?Quote:
Originally Posted by BleeckerSt_Girl
As I stated above, people who have the means to do so should spend. When I said that I did not mean that people who do not have the means to do so should find the means by leveraging credit. DH and I are holding back on quite a few things right now because I don't have a job. We don't have the means. But I expect that I'll be getting a job in January (we have two major corporations merging here in MN and that means work in my field), at which time we'll probably be spending more (we'll also go back to out normal saving pattern, which means saving more too). I do shop online, but I make an effort to buy local and to stay loyal to stores that have been good to me. We still eat out, albeit less, at our favorite local restaurants that cook with local foods, thus supporting the local farmers and restaurant owners here. If everyone like my husband and I stopped eating out and shopping, there's a good chance some of the restaurants and local stores would have to close their doors or lay off staff. Choosing to patronize these places has nothing to do with an idealistic view of what types of jobs I want people to be able to keep, it's the over-arching fact that more people out of jobs hurts the economy, no matter what jobs they had to begin with.
For the record, I said Target, not Walmart. It was an example, not an instruction. But, also for the record, Target is a local company where I am, and they employ a huge number of people at all levels in many areas, from marketing to branding to tech to fashion development to finance to the retail people you see in the stores. Same with Best Buy and 3M. If these three companies have a bad year it will be a horrible hit for the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. So you can bet that I'll be buying my husband's Christmas present from Best Buy, wrapping it in paper from Target and using 3M tape to seal the edges.
I can't speak for Walmart, but I can say this is absolutely not true for Target. Trust me, my husband (who works for Target, along with most of our local friends) does not have a low-paying, benefit-less job that can't support a family. It's supporting both of us right now, and has been since July. And if we had kids, we'd still be getting by without my income. And I've gotten my benefits through Target since we moved here for him to work at Target 4 years ago. They're pretty good, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
Target's a public company. That means that anyone can buy stock in it, not just the rich. Check your 401k, there's a good chance that Target stock is included in one of your mutual funds, which means YOU own Target.
I'm afraid to look at my 401k
I'm not sure that I have anything super insightful to add to this conversation... i just wanted to add that ALL perspectives have been very interesting to read.
As an aside to the "savings" path this thread seems to be on now, though, put my name in the "twenty-something who understands the value of a dollar and hard work" column. Sadly, based on what I see in many people my age (and people not my age, for that matter), it's not a very long column.
Right now, I'm in debt for the first time in my life (unless you count when I borrowed money from my parents and grandpa to buy my first and only car), and it's one student loan taken out in my own name to help me pay for graduate school. I was able to take out a small loan thanks to the money I've been working for and SAVING since I started working in high school. Granted, I had a lot of financial help from my parents when I was in college, but that's what allowed me to put that money in the bank, which is allowing me to avoid the starving-grad-student stereotype now.
Too often, I see peers stiffing roommates on utility bill payments, not chipping in much for tip at a group dinner outing, or not offering gas money for a long drive because they're "broke," but thinking nothing of going out and spending $50 on a DVD box set the day it comes out or $100 on a new dress. I just can't relate to that. If I have the money to buy a new video game, I have AT LEAST that much money to donate to a charity or to shop at a local business instead of Wal-Mart or whatever.
Now, I'm no financial saint. I have my little spendy vices here and there... but the fact remains that I've been a credit-card holder for about 7 years now, and have NEVER ONCE charged more than I could pay off, in full, in that same month. It would never occur to me to spend money that I don't have on a... TV or something.
Now I'm just rambling. I guess where I'm going with this is yes, far too many Americans are gluttonous consumers. But liking to splurge a little on restaurant trips and bicycles and even, yes, fancy cars :p and being a responsible consumer don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I completly agree with the whole diamond issue. Diamonds don't do anything for me. At my last job all the women had these HUGE diamond rings. One women even bragged that she would not marry her husband unless he spent at least $10,000.00 on her engagement ring. Yes, I wrote $10,000.00. To me that is just crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
+1 on the diamond ads. I like diamonds, but I hate the way that women are encouraged to obsess about them. Having a lot of diamonds or large diamonds does not mean that you're more loved or that your relationship "is forever". That's up to you and your SO, and no amount of $$ spent on a ring can guarantee that.Quote:
Originally Posted by solobiker
I have an opal on my wedding ring, and the ring isn't fancy either - it was made by a jewelry student at our college. My husband and I got engaged when we were in college. I don't think we could even conceive of having $10,000 to spend at that time... even now I wouldn't want to have something that valuable on my person.... egad, what if I lost it.
wow, that's an indecent waste of money! And boy, wouldn't that guy be getting a bargain... She wouldn't marry him if he didn't come up with a 10K ring. um, a marriage made in heaven!Quote:
Originally Posted by solobiker
I will not drop carats but my diamonds are mine and I like them. Bigger than what my mom had for 27 years but smaller than many people I know. There was no requirement on the size and this is actually my second ring but that is a long story. My first one was prettier overall and the diamonds were smaller, I still said yes. They were not even close to $10k though that is absurd for this little middle class baby. My now divorced friend had a $10k ring, it was hideous and huge but I just didn't agree with the styling. The man that came with it wasn't worth $10 let alone $10k. His excessive flaunting of money actually was one of the many reasons they are no longer together.
Any person who says they will not marry a man for less than $X has some really messed up priorities. My friend had a friend that said she would reject any guy who presented less than a flawless 2 carat diamond. She finally found someone to give her an insanely huge ring, I hope they are happy together. My diamonds have visible falws to me but you know it is kind of symbolic of me. I love them flaws and all, I tend to think that of my husband when he looks at me. But again those diamonds didn't make our marriage and they sure as heck don't strengthen it as a Debeers ad would like me to believe.
Off that soap box. By the way tongiht I saw 4 car company commercials: Hyundai, Acura, Lexus and BMW. All said a car is an excellent gift. MAybe I will buy DH a Matchbox car for his stocking as a joke. We can donate it to charity later. :p
Yikes, just be careful with it - opals can be very fragile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
I would have liked an opal engagement ring but I worked in a lab at the time and with all the crud I got my hands into I would have had to take it off a lot, a sure way for me to lose it. So I opted for a small sapphire (almost as strong as a diamond) with miniscule diamond chips on either side. As rings go it was pretty inexpensive, but I really like it to this day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flur
Read The Heartless Stone by Tom Zollner. He goes into the whole marketing mega mindset behind the diamond ad campaigns and lots of other socio-political diamond stuff.
DeBeers (they control almost all of the diamond trade) is really scary! You can get diamonds from Canada that are not associated with DeBeers or any of the horrid things that most diamonds are involved in. I would guess its not entirely environmentally friendly getting them out, but they are at least they are providing good jobs to the native communities and are not associated with civil war, slavery, terrorism etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobob
My husband never thought a sapphire could be an engagement ring. We saw someone with one and he was completely in love with the look. He said if he had only known he could do that I would have one instead. He doesn't get too excited about jewelry but he was completely taken by the sapphire engagement ring. He should have watched Friends I reckon. :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crankin
Case in Point:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama
As many of you know, I commute between two cities. One, Bloomington Indiana, has a self made local BILLionaire. He has personally given over $400,000,000.00 to the community for historic rehab and economic development (in addition to being the largest employer in the area).
He lives in an ordinary house on an ordinary street in Mellencamp's small town. Until recently, he and his wife still parked their '94 Cadillac and '96 Buick ON THE STREET because the city would not approve a variance for him to build a garage! Did I mention what he has given to the city??? In any event, his attitude is "give because it's right...expect nothing in return".
NOW, I hear that he has a very, very, very nice boat on the coast...(one that would be valued with a couple of commas and that some would think to be pretentious and ghastly in its cost)...and you know what, I have no problem with that.;)
Lively and enjoyable debate. Mr. Silver steps off the soapbox:)
You can dig your own diamonds in Arkansas!
I may have mentioned this before, but I saw a giant Arkansas diamond at Tiffany's on 5th Avenue, once. I was impressed more with that than anything else in the store! A little bit of home, right there in New York City. :)
Karen
Aggie Ama - Thank you for the info, that helps a lot!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggie_Ama
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Now back to our regularly scheduled soap box meyhem
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I know I am lucky. I have very good benefits through my husband's work that we only pay $180.00 a month for. I was able to quit my well paying job to go back to school, without really changing my lifestyle. I did get a loan for the 18K tuition, but I will pay those back as soon as I graduate. This is the first time in my life that I don't have to work. Yes, I am depending on my husband's salary, but when I was younger and had the opportunity to switch careers, it would have meant a major sacrifice for the whole family. I couldn't do it.
I have never been in a Walmart. There is just something about that place that is creepy. Target, well, I used to go there in AZ, 20 years ago, and haven't been in one since.
Our 401ks have tanked, but they will recover. We are using the downturn to put our money into stocks that are really low but have potential. My husband plans to work for at least 10 more years, maybe longer and I plan to continue my new career at least on a part time basis until I am pretty old. Well, at least until I am 65, maybe longer. I think I would go crazy without working.
One thing to consider is that we are all at different stages of life. I worked for 30 years and for about 10 of those years I also worked a second job in a health club. I also taught religious school. I guess what I am trying to say is that I will keep spending my money, because I feel like I have paid my dues. I don't have any debt except my mortgage and a second mortgage. I am not going to change what I do based on the fact that others are having issues. I just wish that the media would stop talking about how bad it is, because whenever some "announcement" comes out, you can almost feel the panic. It feels planned to me...
I don't think anyone here is begrudging a person that has a comfortable life, or even a luxurious one.... but rather finds tasteless having so much you can't possibly use it all or feeling superior because of the stuff you have rather than the stuff you are made of.... (ala the Lexus ads..)
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden
BTW - For anyone who might be interested in sharing the wealth...Kiva.org is one of many great ways to do it.
You're welcome those are the only ones I could think of although we have a ton, maybe one is suitable to your mom. I didn't realize your mom was here, I thought SA for some reason. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bmccasland
Now that I'm thinking about it, most of my friends have rings in the aforementioned price range. In NYC/Northern Jersey at the time we all got engaged (about 5 years ago) that was the ballpark price for a close-to-flawless 1-to-1.25 carat diamond with a nice setting and maybe a few side stones, and this was the standard size ring unless you were rich (rich by NY/NJ standards, that is). Yes, I said standard size. This is the average ring that most girls got, which was then followed by more major jewelry when each child was born (birthing gifts) and a larger "engagement" ring later, often as an anniversary present. This is the custom. It is what it is, and there's a lot of peer pressure to stick with it (see below). Yes, they're all still married. None of them set a minimum, it's what their husbands did because it's what all their friends did.
DH and I had a nice ring picked out in this ballpark, not because I put a minimum, and not because we could afford it, but because this was what everyone did so we did it too. But when DH told his family that he wanted to marry me, they gave him heirloom stones passed down from his grandmother. This is what he proposed with. The main stone is substantially smaller than the NY standard (but still a nice size, IMHO), but these were a gift from my husband's family with the intention that they be given to me. That means so much more to me than any amount of money he could have spent.
I had a woman outright insult my ring because of its size. No joke. She was DH's hairdresser. She called my center stone a "cute little baby stone" and implied it was not up to her standards. A number of women made faces to the same effect. I also had a good friend insult my wedding band (which I picked because it went nicely with my engagement ring) because of the diamond size. She said that my ring was "nice, but I want a ring that looks like a wedding ring." She picked out a very similar ring with much larger diamonds in it. Seriously. Everything that was said just made me more happy to have what I had.
Apparently to many women size does matter. Is this because of DeBeers? Maybe, I don't know for sure. All I know is that when a couple takes a few years to pay off the cost of the engagement ring after they are married, something is probably off.
The whole "ring=3 month salary" thing is a construct invented by the diamond industry many many years ago as a marketing tool.Quote:
Apparently to many women size does matter. Is this because of DeBeers? Maybe, I don't know for sure. All I know is that when a couple takes a few years to pay off the cost of the engagement ring after they are married, something is probably off.
Many companies, Tiffany included, are now taking a much closer look at where things are coming from. Not just the stones, but the precious metals too.
Again, if you are interested in getting educated on this topic ( diamonds) the book I recommended before is excellent reading.
Well, good for you for not succumbing to the madness. And the audacity of people to insult you because your heirloom family ring was not as big as they thought was appropriate. Such madness. That's right, you've reminded me of why I left NJ!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flur
Yeah...that is seriously ridiculous!! Some people just don't have their priorities straight... Personally I don't care much for the whole engagement ring thing in general; seems kind of wasteful to me and I've never been much into jewelry anyway. Same with the extravagant weddings; wouldn't it be smarter for couples to have a simple-but-still-nice wedding and use that money to get themselves started? That's what I'd like to do once I find that great guy...and he doesn't have to get me a fancy ring either!Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen
Yee-urk :eek:
Ok, I'm officially appalled. Not at people buying cars, mind you.
Get out!!! How silly. Well, they'd have a grand old time picking apart my set! :D The small emerald-cut sapphire ring (fwiw, it's a very nice deep blue stone) is paired with the plainest gold band possible. The jeweler did jazz it up by putting a small curve in the band to follow the contour of the sapphire's setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flur
I think it's simplicity suits me perfectly. :)
And I love the fact that you have a heirloom ring. That makes it so much more meaningful.
I think my engagement ring and wedding band came from Wal-Mart.
No joke.
I'll never wear one even if I do get remarried
And this snobbery goes both ways. I've been insulted and had it insinuated that I'm spoiled or rich because of the size of my ring...also an heirloom. When my DH told my mom that he wanted to marry me, she gave him my grandmother's diamond. He had it set into a ring before he asked me to marry him. It's not huge (it's not multi-carrat or anything), but I've certainly been in situations where people have made plenty of derrogatory comments about it's size. Personally, I find it rude and it makes me uncomfortable. I love, love, love my ring both because I think it's fricken gorgeous and because of the sentimental value (both from DH and from my grandmother/grandfather), but I hate that I find myself in situations where I feel that I'll be better recieved if I keep my hand in my pocket. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flur
About those ads...the very first thing both my DH and I commented on to each other when we first saw them was "wow, bad timing, much?". I'm not personally offended by the ads (or by the people who buy cars for gifts), but I also can't say that Lexus is really making that big of a business mistake by running them. From their perspective, so what if they offend people struggling to get by...those people aren't their customers, right? I mean, yeah, it's not in good taste and they should care about their company image...but really, from a business standpoint, does it really matter?
I want everybody to have a big wedding. I love to go to parties!!!!
you can have a big and fun wedding without spending +10k is the point. My son just did. I should ask him what it cost.
you can have nice gifts without having to spend +40k on a car or +10k on a ring.
The one thing I don't understand is big weddings. I think I recently heard the average wedding costs like $80,000. What??? Why don't people concentrate on the marriage instead?
This was a second marriage for me (most people don't know this) so we had to pay for it ourselves. I am not into planning parties (well, I'm better now) and we could have afforded a nice luncheon at a hotel in Scottsdale. But, instead we had 20 people at the ceremony at our apt. and then we took everyone out to dinner at a restaurant at the top of a bank in downtown Mesa (my in laws knew the owner). My dress was from the Limited, the flowers came from the Japanese flower growers on Baseline Rd. in Phoenix, and my brother who was 15 took the pictures. I do regret not having my friends at my wedding, but it was fun. We decided to spend a little more on our son's Bar Mitzvah parties, which both were held in a restaurant that does catered parties on Saturday afternoons. We spent on the food and had a good dj. The emphasis was on the kids. We made the table centerpieces ourselves and the goody bags for the kids. They both were very nice parties for 5-6K.
I had a very small 3/4 carat engagement ring which I lost. It had a major flaw in it. My husband was going to buy me a 2 carat ring, because as Flur said, that is what everyone around us did. But I said no, let's buy a house instead. I wish I had a diamond now, but I don't think about it, really. I have a lot of very nice heirloom jewelry that I wear when i go out. I used to wear more of it in the 80s when I wore suits to work.
I am now faced with a situation where my older son is serious with a girl from a poor family (that's the least of their issues). It's more that they are financially irresponsible. If they get married, any party will be up to us; my husband is adamant he won't pay, but he did say they could have it at the house. In my mind, a barbeque or pot luck will suffice, unless my son wants to pay for the food! I told him I would give him my diamond earrings to make into an engagement ring; they were set in a ring that my grandmother gave me when I was 13. I also have my mom's wedding dress that I would love for someone to wear. I think that is more meaningful than spending all that $ on a dress.
I think we need to be careful about laying heavy judgements on things. Its so easy to go from being concerned and critical of poor financial decisions, and the overall marketing mentality to buy and consume ( which imsho is justified) to making broad brush judgments that may or may not be accurate or appropriate...
GLC1968's story about getting hassled for her big diamond is a classic. My SIL has a HUGE diamond that she inherited, and frankly it's no one's business but her's how she got it or how much it cost. Who are we to judge if someone CAN afford a big wedding or a fancy car and makes a sound financial choice that is what they want to do? It's no different that someone else judging us becuase we choose to spend our hard earned cash on nice bikes ( and quite a few of us have very nice bikes) instead of jewelry, a nice car or a big TV. Just because someone spends $$ on something that doesn't meet our own personal value system doesn't make it bad, it just means it's something we wouldn't choose to do.
I.