Women in Sci-Fi and Fantasy/Game of Thrones

[Irulan]

{may contain spoilers}
I've been working my way through Game of Thrones, and finally am slogging my way through vol 5 Dances with Dragons. I read a section last night that made me uncomfortable in a subtle way and was discussing it with a friend who had commented that she didn't like how women overall were presented in the series, and had quit after #3.

She then pointed me to this analysis,

George RR Martin is Creepy....
Which I am pretty much inclined to agree with. This blog entry brings to light the unspoken that was making me uncomfortable. Scroll down to the female character score card if you want to skip some snarky but spot-on analysis. Imsho.


What really got to me was a scene presented as a rape, then it turns out that it's Asha's "lover" threatening her with a knife, tearing her clothes off, roughing her up and raping her, but since he's the lover, it's really just rough sex that turns passionate, and not real rape. The fact that this man doing the violence is her lover is almost an endnote to the whole thing. Please insert sarcasm here.

I'm not sure that many female authors do any better. From female authors we get wonder women like Ayla ( Earth's Children**. Jeam M Auel) or Phedre` Delauney (Kushiel's Avatar etc, Jaqueline Carey). These authors present strong female characters who do a lot of cool things, but the "amazingness" of these women is hard to take seriously.

I really like the balanced female and male characters in much of Juliet Marillier's book (Sevenwaters, Breidie Chronicles etc) I think she's one of the few fantasy authors who gives equal respect to male and females. Still, in the world of fantasy stories, it's really hard to escape stereotypes of one sort or another.

That blog just kind of blew my mind, and I thought I'd share it here.
There's another blog entry ( different blog) I read that likened Jondalar and Ayla to Ken and Barbie that was pretty funny. I did like that series, for entertainment, aside from the last one which was truly terrible.



** never mind the last one, it was beyond horrible.

[lph]

Very good blog. Good points!

Actually the wonder women fantasy characters are the ones I find the most annoying. They are just unbearably cool and macho and magical and hard-hitting, and I can just hear the author thinking "ok, that'll shut the girls up and keep them happy". Fine when I was 13 and reading Anne McCaffrey, not so fine now. These days I'm happier with the books that don't make a huge deal out of which gender the character is, just write well and bring me in.

I tend a bit more to science fiction type fantasy, but without considering gender, some of my better fantasy reads in recent years have been Robin Hobbs' books, though they're running on a bit now, and The Painted Man.

And His Dark Materials by Pullman. It's why our brave young cat is called Lyra.

[OakLeaf]

I'm a big fan of Nancy Kress, and my guilty pleasure is CJ Cherryh. Mercedes Lackey is an even guiltier pleasure, but at least her more recent books are free of that kind of BS. You're right, it got old a long time ago, and it was never OK.

+1 on His Dark Materials. The only reason I haven't re-read that yet is that I've promised myself I'd re-read Paradise Lost first, and that's what's holding me up.

[KnottedYet]

Terry Pratchett does a good job with female characters.

[lph]

The only reason I haven't re-read that yet is that I've promised myself I'd re-read Paradise Lost first, and that's what's holding me up.

You must be kidding. You have to read like sixteen lines to get to a verb!

I took Paradise Lost along when I hiked the Pyrenees (the HR10, if anyone's interested) to have something small to read that would take a while. It was so impenetrable it made my head spin. Never got through half.

But I did get some inspired letters home out of it "Here on the trail, whereon I did travel, with dark birds around, angels of the sky, swirling tightly, blah-blah-blah" you get the picture

[Veronica]

I have quite enjoyed the series.

The novels take place in "medieval" times. Let's see... in medieval times women were bought and sold at the convenience of the men in their lives. Racism was rampant. Think about the real world pre-Columbus. Anyone different from you was savage and heathen and it wasn't just Europeans who felt that way. The Japanese refused to allow Europeans to land on their islands for like 200 years. That's essentially the kind of world he is creating. To have equity between the sexes and races would not work in his world. And women were pretty much married off as soon as they started menstruating.

Veronica

[NbyNW]

Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series has always been one of my favorites in terms of how male and female characters are portrayed.

They're very human, even as they take on the jobs of deities like the three Fates, Death, and I can't remember who else was in it. I read it a long time ago and waiting for it to come out as an e-book because it keeps coming up in conversation this past year ...

[Irulan]

...medieval times... there is that argument ( and that it's fiction, fantasy etc) but does medieval have to mean that all women are chattel, or victims, young girls being abused, with threats of rape and violence as the only means of "controlling" them? Why not present at least one example of a loving respectful relationship? There were inklings of that but Martin likes to kill his characters off. Medieval - Elanor of Aquitane comes to mind as a real person who may have technically been chattel but had power in her own right without being evil or a warrior.

Ah well, author's perogotive. But a society that's been around for 4000 years to have not progressed beyond a wheel and a trebuchet?
One friend of mine likened GOT to LOTR without the magic. At least in LOTR the few women characters didn't get smacked around

I love everything that CJ Cherryh has done. Anyone ever read Joan Vinge? The Snow Queen etc? Thanks for the other author suggestions.

[thekarens]

Thanks for the suggestion of Ann Lecki. I'm going to see if I can find her on audible.

I've only skimmed this thread, but I didn't see any mention of Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss. Two of the best contemporary fantasy authors IMO, though not many women characters.

Tolkien is my all time favorite author. I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time when I was 8 and read the series almost once a year every year.

I admit I only read for entertainment. I get plenty of reality in my life and appreciate the break from it when I have the time to read.

[Catrin]

...
Tolkien is my all time favorite author. I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time when I was 8 and read the series almost once a year every year.

I admit I only read for entertainment. I get plenty of reality in my life and appreciate the break from it when I have the time to read.

This! What movies I watch are for the same reason - so I love fantasy/sci-fi/fun/satirical/historical drama films. I've not found many contemporary fantasy authors I care for, the authors I've read have been too...well...dark for me though that may simply be a sign of the times with all of the real world events over the last decade. In my younger years I loved dark fantasy/horror fiction but not these days. Lovecraft and Ambrose Bierce were two of my favorites - though I must admit to still having a soft spot for Lovecraft when I am in the mood. He was certainly original! I will check out the two authors you mentioned - all of the contemporary fantasy authors CAN'T be dark!

[OakLeaf]

I will check out the two authors you mentioned - all of the contemporary fantasy authors CAN'T be dark!

Just a warning ... don't read Who Fears Death if you don't want dark. Okorafor's YA stuff is much less wrenching.

For humorous fantasy, I really liked Max Gladstone's Three Parts Dead, and his new novel is on my list. Strong female protagonist, to keep the thread on topic.

[Irulan]

Tbut I didn't see any mention of Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss. Two of the best contemporary fantasy authors IMO, though not many women characters.

.

I got halfway through the second in his series and had to put it down as absolutely nothing was happening. 700 pages of nothing happening.

I'm always fascinated by the range and variety of what's out there for people to enjoy, and how we are all so different in what appeals to us.

[lph]

I had the same reaction to many of Robin Hobbs' books. I love them, but I keep waiting for the plot to actually go somewhere substantial. It does, eventually, but in the meantime you'd better enjoy the characters!

[Eden]

I read a really good series recently by Lynne Flewelling - the Tamir Triad - full of very strong women and a bit of gender bending (it's crucial to the plot, so I won't give anything more away)
The Bone Doll's Twin
Hidden Warrior
The Oracle's Queen

She also did (does? not sure if there will be more) the Nightrunner series, which in addition to being just plain old good fantasy, also has well rounded and non-sterotypical LGBT characters

[OakLeaf]

One thing I really loved about Ancillary Justice is that the narrator speaks a language that has no gender, and to "translate" the narrator's thoughts into English, Leckie uses generic feminine pronouns, even with respect to characters that she identifies as biologically male. It's pretty much incidental to the plot, other than a reinforcement of how many of the characters are distinctly post-human, but it forces the reader to confront their own gender stereotypes CONSTANTLY.