OT - moving daughter up a grade - opinions?

[slinkedog]

We are in the same situation... our daughter is 4 and will be 5 in November. We could send her to K this year, but opted for an academic Jr. K program at a nearby preschool.

I initially (beginning of last school year) had thought she would do fine going to K this year, but after helping in my son's K class, I started to see how the children (especially the girls) interacted with one another and how quickly things got quite competetive. It was a real eye-opener and made us decide that giving our daughter another year of childhood would be a good thing.

I see my teenaged daughter (who is now 15 and a sophomore) having to make tough choices many times, and it makes me even more glad that we are deciding to hold the little one back a year. Knowing that she will have another year of critical thinking and decision-making skills under her belt when she has to face peer-pressure stuff is a good thing, imho.

[Trekhawk]

This is majorly OT, but thought I'd post it here to get a wide point of view from TE...

As some of you know - I'm switching jobs and moving to Louisiana. My daughter (FishJr) is currently in 4K. She is having fun, but is bored and dissappointed because she says she isn't learning anything. She is doing math (addition and some subtraction), can write all of her letters, her name, and numerous other words, etc. She's mature for her age (emotionally and intellectually) and her teacher suggested that we put her in Kindergarten when we move.

I know we have some teachers here and others with opinions. What do you think? Is there any benefit to advancing a child a grade at this age? I've looked at the curriculum for the school that she will attend and she's already doing what they are supposed to accomplish in the first quarter of Kindergarten and some of the second quarter as well.

We've talked with her about it and she says she want to make the jump to K. I don't want to put too much pressure on her.

Oh the joys of moving. I think sorting out the school issue is the thing I hate most about moving. Different places different grades etc etc. Anyway that aside when we moved to the USA from Aust we were a little unsure of how our boys would get on at school. Our school year runs from Feb to Dec so coming half way thru the USA school year meant either the boys going forward or back six months we elected for them to move forward. This was probably the biggest leap for my middle boy who went straight from Preschool to half way thru Kindergarten. My boys are doing really well and have had no problems. That being said when we return to Aust we will again be in the same predicament. Do we go up six months again which will make them a full year ahead of their peers in Aust or put them back into the grade they would be in if we stayed in Australia. My husband and I have opted for returning them to the grade they would be in if we stayed in Aust which means they will really be repeating six months of school. For boys I think maturity, size etc can all be an issue.

Talk to the schools but you as parents know your child the best. Most good schools will know this and work with parents to achieve what is best for your child. Being bored in class is not good for kids and perhaps the challenge of a higher grade is what she needs.

Good Luck

[MomOnBike]

Note the pattern here. Mostly the mothers of girls had positive experiences moving their kids forward, and mothers of boys didn't. This is my observation in meat space as well.

Sadly, I fear that little boys don't mature as quickly as girls.

My experince:

Elder Daughter (still the smartest individual I know) did not have any gifted/talented programs available in the small town we lived in. So she skipped 2nd grade. There were a few social problems later - a more assertive individual wouldn't have noticed probably, but all in all, it was a good choice. When the school tried to advance her again I resisted. That was just too much of an age diff.

Younger Daughter was a late August baby & the cutoff for letting her into school was (I think) May. She was reading at a 3rd grade level and doing division before she went to school. I fought to get her into Kindergarten "early." I won. She just started at Cornell a few weeks ago. Again, there were a few problems in High School, but I think there would have been far more if she'd been held back. She tends to need a challange.

So, my advice? Get your kid in a class that challanges her. I think she's ready.

[salsabike]

I am not a parent but am a school psych. I agree with Mimitabby, Margo and others on this one. The thing is, Fish, that even skipping one grade may not be enough for FishJr. There is a wide range of skills in any one classroom, and she may always outstrip the curriculum and need enrichment. Many teachers love to give that, and you'll always be doing it too. Skipping a year might work great for her--and I'd do it for a girl sooner than for a boy, since it does seem to work better for girls--just know that she may catch up to THAT curriculum too, and after that the enrichment from school and home will still be needed to fill in the gaps.

BTW, Fish, congrats on the job!

[Bluetree]

When the school tried to advance her again I resisted. That was just too much of an age diff.

Absolutely agree, MOB. I skipped 2nd, and was up for promotion again in the 5th grade, but my parents said no. I never spoke up against it (I didn't want to sound like a coward) but I really didn't want to leave all my friends again. I was so grateful that they refused.

But that didn't help my academic situation. When I was in school (1970s, early 80s), there weren't many alternatives to skipping grades until high school, where AP classes were offered. I was enrolled in some extracurricular classes prior to that, but they didn't help ease the boredom of my required classes. When I said I was fortunate to have supportive teachers, I mean to say they went above and beyond their normal course of duties.

One teacher in particular skirted some regulations to help me through middle school. When she realized that the history lessons were not up to snuff, she gave me three months to learn the entire textbook and pass the final. The remainder of the year was spent under her tutelage in independent study (I wrote a paper on a famous artist who concealed secret messages in his abstract art to get nazi info to the Allies).
When this teacher caught me teasing a classmate for not catching on to something, she made me tutor that same student for the entire semester. I'll never forget her words when she caught me teasing that other girl, "You were given great gifts. That means you have a great responsibility. Don't make me wrong about you." Imagine a very large and angry black woman saying this through clenched teeth, getting right into the face of a cocky adololescent. I miss her.

Sorry to go so Off-Topic, but this thread really digs up some memories...

[DrBee]

Thanks so much for all of your thoughts on this. We keep going back and forth. We are going to have her evaluated by the school (as is required, of course) and go from there. We are going to talk with the school/teacher when we go on the house hunting trip. I have confidence in her in that she will do well in whatever grade she is in. We are talking with her about this as much as we can without putting pressure on her.

Wish us luck!

[DrBee]

The school system does have a good gifted program, too.

[GulfCoastSwim]

Do it! I was skipped ahead as a kid and it kept me from being bored in school. One year really doesn't make that much difference if she's mature, but I might hesistate at more than that.

[tygab]

I went to a gifted HS and the "normal" entry was to skip a grade when coming in (at 8th grade essentially). All my sibs did this (2 older, 1 younger). I did not. Now don't get me wrong, they are all very happy, successful, socially adjusted adults, but where it seemed to make a difference (to my view) was upon entering college. Being so young in college seemed to put some strains on them that I'm not even sure I could articulate - I just could feel it was something harder for them.

In my case, I didn't skip the grade, and I also took a year before college, which I spent in France, attending French HS and living with a family. So I was an 'old' freshman, and I loved having a more mature outlook that had come from both age and having already been away from home on my own in a different country.

So, I lean toward the earlier sentiment that it never seemed a disadvantage to be the older one, but it could hurt to be the youngest one.

[Geonz]

I started school early and dropped out a year early to go to college.

16 **is** young to be in college (tho' really it was the best option for me). In hindsight, I might have done better to do something else to figure out myself and the world, before heading off to college to do academic stuff. And, at one point (eighth grade), we considered having me stay back a year to mature.

Research bears out the experiences here: for girls, it is socially much less comfortable & healthy to be the most mature one in the class; for boys, it is more stressful to be late maturing. (Think abotu what it's like to have a full figure in fourth grade... the comments... etc... I would have were I not younger...)

If you're moving anyway, a lot of issues won't be issues.

[winddance]

I was one of these kids. I started kindergarten at 4, and then later skipped 8th grade. This put me in college at the ripe old age of 16 as well. I still stand by that, even though I am now wishing I'd taken a bit of time to smell the roses before entering college.

I was a royal terror in pre-school, until one day I wandered over to the older-kid table and they realized that I was bored to tears. I was maybe 2.5 or 3 at the time, but this prompted my parents to get me tested to enter kindergarten early when the time came. I was accepted, and went, and I really do not think it made one bit of difference. I definitely think that I enjoyed school more because I was actively engaged and learning.

Skipping 8th grade was a different matter for me. In retrospect, I still would have done it, because academics have always been more important to me than having a social life, but I really felt out of place in high school and I haven't felt quite right since. I really don't know that I noticed the social aspect of school up until middle school, so I wouldn't say that was an issue for me when starting kindergarten early.

[Duck on Wheels]

... Most of her friends are older than her...

For me that's an important point. I skipped 3rd, but was socially clueless and physically clumsy. Didn't know how to jump in when skipping long rope (which was a big thing in the 4th grade, but not yet in 3rd), couldn't play any of the team games well, was shy, too competitive academically etc. etc. So I wound up being more or less friendless until college. My brother skipped 5th that same year, but he was much better at making friends (including by hiding how good he was academically -- not even the teachers knew and my folks had to insist that either both of us skipped or neither; he's now a philosophy professor). But if FishJr is good at making friends, including with kids older than herself, I'd say go for it. Especially at this stage, i.e. pre-school and in connection with a move. Being openly bored by school might be understood by other kids as being show-offish (I now know I was seen that way in grades 1 and 2, though in Kindergarden the kids valued that I could read books to them in free play time), in which case she might fit in better by starting off with kids who are reading etc. more or less at her level.

[DirtDiva]

An interesting discussion for a primary teacher to wade into!

Skipping and repeating years doesn't happen that often in NZ, which has a lot to do with how the curriculum and schools are structured. Particularly at smaller schools and particularly at the earlier year levels there are a lot of composite classes (for example, I taught a Year 7/8 class last week and a Year 1/2 class today). It goes without saying, really, that you never ever find that all the most academically able children are the oldest and all the least academically able children are the youngest, you never ever find that all the most physically able children are the oldest and all the least physically able children are the youngest, you never ever find that all the most socially able children are the oldest and all the least socially able children are the youngest, etc., etc., etc. Personally, I really like teaching composite classes (the NZ curriculum is plenty flexible enough to accomodate them).

As for FishJr, I have no expertise in early childhood education, so feel free to take what I say with as large a grain of salt as you wish, but if she's bright enough to consider moving up a year at this stage, she'll always be prone to boredom at school; regardless of your decision, the most important thing is that you investigate what will be provided for gifted and talented students on a day-to-day, in-classroom basis as this will have the greatest impact on her enjoyment of learning in the school environment.

In a way, it's easier to deal with at secondary level. If I child excels at maths and science, they can skip levels in those subjects and remain with their peers in others. My quite strongly held opinion is that at any level, a teacher should be able to provide for the needs of each and every child in their class. Sure, it's difficult when a child has no natural academic peers, but it's yer freakin' job!!!


I think I've babbled on enough for one night...

[Bluetree]

I started school early and dropped out a year early to go to college.

16 **is** young to be in college (tho' really it was the best option for me). In hindsight, I might have done better to do something else to figure out myself and the world, before heading off to college to do academic stuff. And, at one point (eighth grade), we considered having me stay back a year to mature.

Research bears out the experiences here: for girls, it is socially much less comfortable & healthy to be the most mature one in the class; for boys, it is more stressful to be late maturing. (Think abotu what it's like to have a full figure in fourth grade... the comments... etc... I would have were I not younger...)

The Ex skipped three grades, making him a just-turned 15-year-old in college. I don't know what he would be like had he stayed the regular course, but I could see personality traits that made me wonder...

He always seemed to have a chip on his shoulder. He was tall and good looking, yet he seemed to have a Napoleonic Complex.

He was completely unable to make small talk and never knew how to relax and "go with the flow."

He had difficulty making friends. When he met new people, he didn't see them as potential friends, but as potential rivals.

He was successful, but never successful enough. To him, being extremely successful + unhappy was better than being moderately successful + happy.

He had difficulty seeing women as human beings. He never answered my question when I asked him when he had his first date. That said, he had the requisite trophy wife/model when he made his first million.

He was the smartest person I had ever met. But I couldn't help but see a very sad and lonely child. I probably understood him better than anyone had in his life, but he was ultimately too messed up to have a stable relationship.

[Crankin]

This is a difficult issue. I've been a teacher for 30 years and most of the time we recommend not to move up or down a grade (repeat). It sounds like academically, your daughter should go to K. She also seems to do well socially, so there shouldn't be any issues. I think the issues that come up in these situations are further in the future. I'm a middle school teacher and there IS a difference when you are 10 in 6th grade and everyone else is 11 and 12. I teach in a school that has a progressive and challenging curriculum, so we meet the needs of a wide range of abilities. I've had some extremely bright kids who did not skip a grade and now are flourishing in HS, with all kinds of advanced classes and activities, college courses, etc. The thing is that your peers and social life are probably the most important thing in grades 5-8. This is just a developmental thing. Even the smartest well adjusted kid often tries to "hide" their giftedness, so as not to appear different. This isn't necessarily good, or the thing that should make your decision, but you could have an ugly 2-4 years just because your daughter is less physically developed and has different interests than the majority of her peers. A good school will deal with this, but it might be good to think of this when you are making your decision.