This looks bad for Floyd.......

[mimitabby]

RoadRaven
what did Lance say about this?

the test to check the carbon isotope in the testosterone takes 2 weeks..
so they do not have the answer to that one yet, right?

[RoadRaven]

mimi... I was just referring to the way in which Armstrong is responding to media questions about Landis...

From memory, Armstrong didn't say boo in support/defence of Tyler Hamilton whom he also rode with for a while in Discovery..

For example, on Larry King Live...

"I thought it was unlike anything I'd ever seen in cycling and I mean that in a good way. I thought it was -- I thought he was tough. I thought the guys behind, who were chasing him, didn't do a great job but he showed a lot of heart and gut and determination that day."

"If we ever suspected anything, if there was suspicious behavior or anything to lead us to believe he was a cheater, then we would have parted ways long before we did. And when he did leave he left for a better offer from another team and we had to respect that."

"But above and beyond everything else he was -- he was one of the toughest young kids that I'd ever come across and we could see that. I mean we'd bring the kids to training camp and I was trying to get fit and trying to win a Tour and you had this young kid with this incredible tough attitude that was challenging me on every hill and at every opportunity. So, we knew then that he was -- he was our kind of guy and he was a tough bike rider."

[Cassandra_Cain]

I don't pretend to understand all the science, tests, and details - biology wasn't my subject.

So let me pose this....if a guy has naturally high testosterone, then wouldn't it always be higher than 'normal/average'? Rather than just spike up at some odd moment? Wouldn't said rider with high testosterone always or at least most of the time, test above the 4:1 ratio they've established?

Also, I'm reading the Landis and his lawyers are saying they don't expect the B sample to be any different than the A sample. I'm inferring if that's the case then he will lose the TDF title and possibly prompt a long, drawn-out appeal process.

The biggest loser in all this, as Oscar Pereiro mentioned a few days ago, has to be the entire sport of cycling.

[maillotpois]

This is my question - why did Lance jump into this when he didn't say anything about Tyler??? He's not racing now and he was then is maybe one reason. They courted/are courting Floyd for Discovery. Another reason?

I know Tyler's "defense" now seems a bit silly in retrospect - but bear in mind that when it was all coming down - that was a test with no proven track record, no published false positive rate, etc. And Tyler looks as sweet and honest as The Floyd. (And sure I'm bitter 'cause I believed Tyler til about 2 - 3 weeks ago when they published that fax to Haven about he bill for all of Tylers drugs as part of Operacion Puerto....)

So - even if LA is not racing, whatever - he still has a lot to lose by coming out so strongly if it turns out The Floyd is not clean.

So what's up??!?!?

[Nanci]

There's a good article about Floyd in the New York Times today.

http://tinyurl.com/jd2ya

Nice how the lab is going to close for vacation! How convenient. (They have agreed to run his test, though.) And nice how they claim to have not received his first request to test the B sample- and he has a five business day limit from the release of the A sample results to request that. Guilty or not- that lab seems very shady to me.

The article says that if the samples contain, what's the word, exogenous? testosterone, he can still try to prove that it came from say, sabotage or contaminated dietary supplements.

Here's an interesting thought from the article I linked to in the women/doping thread: (from 2004) I think the last sentence will apply to Floyd, too.

"Cycling even has its own Barry Bonds, in the person of American star Tyler Hamilton, whose Athens gold medal carries a giant question mark thanks to a positive test for an illegal blood transfusion—an old-fashioned doping technique that seems to have come back into vogue, ironically, because of more sophisticated tests for EPO, the endurance athlete's drug of choice. Hamilton is keeping his gold medal, thanks to a botched testing protocol, but he faces sanctions for a second positive test during the Tour of Spain. Like Bonds, Hamilton insists that he's innocent despite a steaming mound of evidence to the contrary. (Unlike Bonds, however, Hamilton is widely regarded as a nice guy, which is why many in cycling continue to believe him.)"

[alpinerabbit]

Insert cyclist of choice.... I wasn't gonna add "Mr. Landis", but in a few days....

[Bike Goddess]

Restrec- A little coaching here- please when you are making comments make sure you consider the source. The lab that is doing the testing has NOT published its results. Those of us who have been having this conversation are waiting for them to be published. Then we can come to our own conclusions.

You are entitled to your own opinions, BUT I would suggest you wait a few more days before coming down with the hatchet.

Who are you, anyway???

[Dogmama]

Didn't some of the "authorities" also say that there was no possibility he could register such high testosterone levels so quickly even if he had been doping? I thought they said that these blood levels build up slowly.

Additionally, every cyclist who has been charged with this type of "doping" (technically it isn't doping) has appealed and won. So, let's not be so quick, Restrec, to jump to conclusions.

The test could have been flawed. 50% of all doctors graduated at the bottom half of their class.

[chickwhorips]

Additionally, every cyclist who has been charged with this type of "doping" (technically it isn't doping) has appealed and won. So, let's not be so quick, Restrec, to jump to conclusions.

i agree and still have hope.

who knows what exactly the "A" sample said. all we have to compare it to is the "B" sample that we don't have results from. even then we won't have all the details on what the results were. just hope they hurry up. all the suspense is killing me.

[Petra]

...doping seems to be an international endeavor these days, and not in any way connected to nationality. And Jan certainly did not get a good press after the connection to a spanish doctor was published, its not European against American riders, and the acceptance of doping seems to be growing (albeit well hidden from public awareness in many cases) even in the ranks of amateur sport (according to reports in a german weekly newspaper). this is truly sad, and such an amazing event like the TdF would be wonderful to watch even with a slightly reduced average speed in the absence of doping....

P.S. August is the month of holidays in France, nearly everybody leaves to go somewhere, Paris is deserted (good time to go on holidays there...), that is the reason why the lab is closing for a few weeks.

[jpbayarea]

I have to add that it's impossible to imagine what happens to A body when
that body has been raced up 5 mountain stages in such glory and exhilaration as was Floyd Landis that day of his historic ride. I feel quite sure that something amazing happened that day. I hate to get all 'woo-woo' here but in such a moment as that race was for him, with nothing to lose and everything
to gain by focusing, hydrating, pushing to the very limit of what is possible for a human being....it's just possible that his SOUL was electrified by the experience and his entire body, organism, biochemistry and all functions of that body responded by going haywire.....

As someone else said, testosterone rises just in watching something such as this. How often have you experienced a strong desire to go out and RIP up the road after some exhiliarating moment of bike racing and ridden like never before, simply in the thrill of that excitement.

I refuse to judge him as a doper. I do not believe it, though I don't think we will ever know. I assume his B sample will also come back positive (of course) and he'll be found guilty, will appeal, will WIN that appeal, but his name is forever tainted despite it being unlikely that he did anything wrong. The system is foul, the lab is foul and the French do not want an American to win the Tour again. The people who cheered are different from those behind the scenes.

I know we are all very upset by all this and it's so unfortunate but I just choose to go with my gut and believe this man. He is just not dumb enough to do that when he knew he'd be tested and he knew the climate of the race and the sport. And still, I fear and believe no good will come of this, unfortunately, no matter what the truth is.

[jeannierides]

I refuse to judge him as a doper. I do not believe it, though I don't think we will ever know.
I know we are all very upset by all this and it's so unfortunate but I just choose to go with my gut and believe this man. He is just not dumb enough to do that when he knew he'd be tested and he knew the climate of the race and the sport. And still, I fear and believe no good will come of this, unfortunately, no matter what the truth is.

my thoughts exactly.

[withm]

As more stories come in it looks like Floyd Landis is toast, but I have not
seen anyone raise this question:

They keep looking for for a source of elevated testestorne. But maybe there
is a cause of reduced epitestosterone?

Could it be possible that the dehydration and bonking the day before, coupled with the extreme effort on the day of the comeback is responsible for a depletion in the epitestosterone stores, thus causing the high ratio of
testestorne to epitestosterone?

Can anyone tell me why this is, or os not plausible?

[latelatebloomer]

My gut feeling is that something is weird here, and that it just makes no sense that Landis would be so stupid as to dope, KNOWING he'd be tested. He seems like the kind of person who'd rather ride clean and finish lower than take the podium dirty, and a lot of people who've known him seem to say the same. I haven't been following cycling for long, and you all know that I just loved seeing a Pennsylvanian wail the Alps - but this guy has a reputation for being smart, being honest, and riding like the devil on horseback.

True, isn't it, that it would only take one bad apple with access to contaminate samples, or even contaminate what a rider is eating or drinking...? With all the money involved, I just wonder. 'Cause something keeps bugging me.

[tprevost]

I have to add that it's impossible to imagine what happens to A body when
that body has been raced up 5 mountain stages in such glory and exhilaration as was Floyd Landis that day of his historic ride. I feel quite sure that something amazing happened that day. I hate to get all 'woo-woo' here but in such a moment as that race was for him, with nothing to lose and everything
to gain by focusing, hydrating, pushing to the very limit of what is possible for a human being....it's just possible that his SOUL was electrified by the experience and his entire body, organism, biochemistry and all functions of that body responded by going haywire.....

As someone else said, testosterone rises just in watching something such as this. How often have you experienced a strong desire to go out and RIP up the road after some exhiliarating moment of bike racing and ridden like never before, simply in the thrill of that excitement.

I refuse to judge him as a doper. I do not believe it, though I don't think we will ever know. I assume his B sample will also come back positive (of course) and he'll be found guilty, will appeal, will WIN that appeal, but his name is forever tainted despite it being unlikely that he did anything wrong. The system is foul, the lab is foul and the French do not want an American to win the Tour again. The people who cheered are different from those behind the scenes.

I know we are all very upset by all this and it's so unfortunate but I just choose to go with my gut and believe this man. He is just not dumb enough to do that when he knew he'd be tested and he knew the climate of the race and the sport. And still, I fear and believe no good will come of this, unfortunately, no matter what the truth is.

.... what she said....

t~