touring bike purchase help!

[SadieKate]

$350 for that Mercian??? You have got to be kidding?? I'll ask Bubba if he can take a look at the specs about what would need to be replaced to make it cassett-compatible.

If you can deal with the bar ends (friction shifting), my inital guess is wheels you'd loose the Phil Wood hubs ) and a new chain. As long as the chain width worked for the crank you'd probably be set and could trust that repairs could be easily dealt with.

RSX cranks, 175 length - aren't these the old Shimano touring cranks so the chainrings should be small? Jobob? Cindy, when you email ask about the chainring sizes.

I'll email Bubba and see if he has time to take a look.

[natheless]

I'll put in a good word for the Volpe. It seems like a great bike for a reasonable price, and I found it a comfortable and friendly ride.

(I got seduced into buying a much more expensive and less touring-friendly bike in the end... but the Volpe was almost my bike.)

Otherwise, I would just say to go with whatever feels best to you when you ride - I think all your choices are probably fine bikes, it's really going to come down to fit. (And making sure you have low enough gearing for hauling your stuff!)

[stella]

cindysue,

a friend of mine rides the bianchi volpe and loves it! He was also able to get a "last year's model" at a cheaper price. He purchased it for $750.00

drop me a pm when you hit NE, I can get you connected with some decent bike shops, should you need one.

stella

[roughingit]

I have a Fuji Touring and adore it! It's steel too and has spots to put almost anything you can think of, even an extra spoke-holder! The Volpe being a cross bike doesn't have quite as good a gearing range and as I recall they were very similar in price. I never got to test ride one though, since no one had any that weren't big man-ape sizes.

[SadieKate]

Bubba’s first email
Unfortunately I can't get in to the forum to comment directly (access is blocked) but I did see the craigslist posting on the Mercian and would suggest that it's a great deal for the serious tourer.

Your reservations about the use of freewheels and older equipment is well taken but a couple of things can be done to reduce reliability and function concerns. Everyone loves freehubs and cassettes today because of their strength and ease of replacement/change but a dedicated touring bike will probably only be set-up once and the parts replaced only when they wear out. As you know, freewheels also come with a detectable weight disadvantage but nothing that cannot be lived with. And keep in mind that freewheels are still available in almost every bike shop - not because they are being replaced on older high-end touring bikes but because they still come on many mid-range and lower priced bikes. Sachs/SRAM and Sun both still sell good to very good quality freewheels in 6, 7, and 8 speed configurations. In fact "Rosebud" ([SK]Bubba’s old touring Trek 760 and maybe for sale if all else fails) has a 7-speed Sachs freewheel on right now and I can buy a replacement from several sources. The issue of replacement freewheels only becomes an issue if you want to use SunTour "index" shifting (like someone I know [SK- my Mercian]) since the spacing on almost all currently available freewheels is designed for Shimano "index" only.

This brings me to the only suggestions I might offer Cindy. Buy the Mercian if it looks like the fit is close to right. (See my second comment below).

Shop e-bay or craigslist for a set of Shimano 8-speed bar end shifters and an 8-speed Sachs or Sachs/SRAM freewheel and swap over to indexing. The 8-speed freewheel should fit on the current Phil hub and should be compatible with the current frame spacing which I would guess is 126 mm in the rear. (No frame bending or respacing should be necessary - my Trek is 126 mm in the rear with an 7-speed freewheel and works perfectly - Sheldon Brown also says the same thing, I think). I suggest indexing for the convenience and 8-speed for the additional gears above the six currently in back. Friction shifters (already on this bike) would also work but not many people other than Rivendell nuts are that familiar with friction shifting anymore. Even the use of bar end shifters are a stretch for some people and if Cindy has any reservation about bar ends (when combined with a fully loaded touring bike) then I think Shimano still sells a set of integrated shifters for 8-speeds somewhere in their lower end parts list [SK – Sora, I think]. The bike listing also says that the rear derailleur is a Shimano XT and if it was made in the last 15 or so years it should shift 8 speeds just fine with the proper shifters. The other issue some people take with the old freewheel system (if it’s not just a Shimano marketing ploy) is that rear hubs, with freehubs/cassettes in the design, have the hub bearings spaced further apart for a stronger hub design with less chance of bending or breaking the rear axle. Since the hubs on this bike are Phil Wood, considered some of the strongest hubs ever made and used for years on tandems of all sorts, I don't think hub, axle or wheel strength will be any issue here.

Fit of the bike is the other issue. Note that the 56 cm seat tube measurement provided in the listing is a center to "TOP" listing and not a center to center listing (this can produce about a centimeter and a half difference in sizing and may or may not be critical). If this sizing means the frame may be slightly smaller than perceived that is not necessarily bad. A slightly smaller frame may produce a better top tube length for Cindy (and top tube length should probably be identified as a critical measurement for long-distance touring fit). A slightly smaller frame may also be commensurately stiffer side-to-side and possibly provide a more predictable handling for out-of-the-saddle grunts up a steep grade (not common with any loaded tourer, however, since spin and twiddle is the name of the touring rider's hill climbing technique). Stem length will be the other half of the frame length/fit equation and it looks like we're talking a quill stem here. As you know, quill stems come with the advantage of easy bar height adjustment and with the disadvantage of not-so-easy replacement (both the need to take everything apart to replace the stem and the availability of replacement stems - although Rivendell is a great source for solutions in stem replacement).

Everything else about this bike screams serious long-distance tourer with comfort and long days in the saddle with fully-loaded panniers the reason for this bike's existence. You and I would probably not pause over some of the bike's dated technology (since it is still hell-for-stout and functional, just quirky) but a 21st century rider, used to only the latest technology, may not be happy unless all the differences are understood, accepted, and perhaps appreciated for their own value and function.

Bubba’s second email
Additional insights into older touring bikes. Harris Cyclery suggests that a 126 mm spaced rear hub may be upgraded to only 7 speeds before encountering interference and fit problems, with 8-speed freewheels reserved for use on 130 mm spaced rear hubs. Harris also points out that Sachs/SRAM freewheels are no longer commonly available but that Shimano is making some great new freewheels in "7-speed" configurations with mega gear ranges for tourists, older mountain bikes, and hybrids. Shimano indexing bar end shifters will shift 7 or 8 speeds with the only difference being the adjustment of the inner and outer stops on the back derailleur. With 7-speeds you just don't use one of the clicks - the derailleur comes up against its inner stop before the last click available on the shifter.

If 8-speeds are still desired and the 126 mm spacing does cause interference, Phil wood has a longer axle and the appropriate spacer available to change the hub to 130 mm spacing. Sheldon Brown suggests that a 130 mm hub can probably be run in a 126 mm spaced frame with no problems or need for cold setting the frame to the wider dimension - the frame can just be sprung wider to slip the hub/wheel in.

All of this discussion still suggests that this Mercian frame/bike will come with some "quirks" or "issues" that not all riders may want to address. None of this suggests that this bike isn't perfectly rideable as is, and isn't capable of many miles of satisfactory use if the rider is willing to learn how to use the current drivetrain and the fit ends up suitable.

Bubba’s phone call just now
The price and bike is awesome. If you can get it to fit with the right quill stem, it is rideable now. If she wants to take it to index, some careful shopping on eBay will probably let her go to indexing for 100 bucks. Tell her to feel free to call me at home tonight if you want.

[cindysue]

not much of an update since the owner never responded to my email. It's an anonymous craigs list email and there is no other contact info. The post is still up so maybe the owner just hasn't checked their email yet.

First I must say THANK YOU very much for the most thorough and thoughtful email.

OK, let me try to address some of Bubba's comments:

- if/when owner emails me, I will make an appointment to see about fit. And I will definitely keep it in mind that the 56 may be very different than my current 56. Thanks for pointing that out!
- will keep the stem issue in mind as well
- not too concerned with freewheel weight
- I went to a used bike shop today (the infamous Karim) and saw an old Bianchi with the bar end shifters. I think it might be a bit awkward but guess I'd have to get on the bike and try it out to see how I really feel. The guy wanted me to go on a test ride but I opted out of that. The place kinda gave me the creeps.
- I'm fine with Shimano (lower end is OK) and know nothing about suntour index shifting - actually I don't know what indexing is but I can do a quick search
- as with indexing, I know nothing about friction shifters (google, here I come)
- I'm all for extra gears so thanks for telling me how I'd go about doing that
- spin and twiddle? that's a new one. Can't wait to see what google comes up with.
- if/when the guy/gal emails, I may call for more info on the drivetrain quirkiness issue.

Thanks again! I'll keep y'all posted!

[SadieKate]

Cindy, go to www.sheldonbrown.com and use his glossary. Look up index shifting there and also read the articles on old bikes, shifting and touring. Bubba says those would all be good info.

Indexing is essentially click shifting pre-integrated brake/shifter days.

First there was friction shifting (ok after Campy invented the derailleur, you wiseacres) - you move a lever and the derailleur moves. By the change in cadence and sound (or looking) you knew to what gear you had moved the derailleurs.

Then, the shifters became "indexed" or click. You move the lever a click and the derailleur moved to the appropriate position . Most modern day bar end shifters (on either drop bars or out on the end of a time trial bar) work this way.

STI shifters combined the indexed shifter lever into the brake levers and we have the "brifter" which is what you use.

[jobob]

Both of my bikes have bar-end shifters which are in friction mode for the front derailleur and either index or friction mode for the rear.

When the rear indexing gets a little out of whack, sometimes I'm too lazy to adjust it, so I change the rear shifter from index to friction. It's a simple turn of a knob on shift lever. Dusty (my pink Riv) is currently friction shifting front & rear.

Next time you see either me or V. (she has essentially the same setup on Fluffy), we'll show you what I'm talking about.

ed. to add: hey! I just noticed Bubba's comment about "Rivendell nuts" . Oh, OK, guilty as charged.

[cindysue]

still no word about the Mercian.........

B&L Bikes and Ken's Ski and Bike (both in Davis) have Fuji and Bianchi touring bikes in stock. There is a cool touring bike at B&L that we were both admiring Saturday that is well within your price range, but I think it was a Jamis. Looked like a great set up.

is B&L the shop where Bubba bought his seven?

if I go with the Bianchi, I'm also considering:

missing link (good reputation)
left coast (woman owned, heard great things)
american cyclery (apparently they specialize in touring)


if I go with the trek, then:

calpedaler (my lbs)
bicycle outfitter (snap's rec.)

anyone have opinions on the above shops?????

I want to make sure I get an excellent fit!

[SadieKate]

Bill bought his bike at Davis Wheelworks. I don't think they have much in the way of youring bikes. Cyclocross. Maybe a Specialized Sequoia. I can check if you want me to but they are a Cervelo, Specialized, Cannondale, Pinerallo, Felt, Ridley, etc. dealer. Hmm, does Ridley have anything?

If you are happy with the fit of your Orbea, use all those numbers to get the right fit. I don't know how high the Orbea's bars are set up, but you may want to raise them for touring.

Truly, if you feel the Orbea has the absolutely perfect fit, you can use those numbers for saddle setback behind the crank, saddle height, cockpit length, bar width, etc.

[SadieKate]

BikerZ, what was the name of the bay area shop Joe recommended? Bike Montano or something like that? He thought they could do good fittings.

[bikerz]

I believe this is the one Joe recommended:

Montano Velo
4266 Piedmont Ave.
Oakland
510-654-8356

[maillotpois]

I've got to go into Bicycle Odyssey tomorrow to get a seat post. Tony's got a lot of amazing stuff in there and I will ask him if he does any specific touring bikes. He's a jedi master.

[Rai Sue]

More on touring with older bikes:

Bubba's info was great--

I'm also gonna add that i've been riding with old suntour bar end friction shifters, and i almost like them better than my integrated Shimano 105 indexed shifters. First, much easier to adjust, and also if they ever break, they'll be either fixable or cheap to replace. Also, unlike some old high-end road bikes with down-tube shifters, you don't have to take your hands off the bar to shift. This is especially great when going up steep hills, i've found.

Also, every bike mechanic i've talked to has no problem with working on friction shifting.

Also, in terms of how many speeds, isn't the gear range more important than the number of gears? I might be wrong, but would be curious. I was looking at my friends' Kona, which has a bajillian speeds. Her special "granny gear" in the back was the same as mine. So, she had a lot more gears, but not a larger range. Then, I put an 8-speed casette on a different bike, but it was more speed oriented, and i have a much harder time going up hills, even tho i have more gears.

I guess i'm just curious about if having more gears really helps you out, or if the actual gear ration is more important.

[Rai Sue]

More on touring with older bikes:

Bubba's info was great--

I'm also gonna add that i've been riding with old suntour bar end friction shifters, and i almost like them better than my integrated Shimano 105 indexed shifters. First, much easier to adjust, and also if they ever break, they'll be either fixable or cheap to replace. Also, unlike some old high-end road bikes with down-tube shifters, you don't have to take your hands off the bar to shift. This is especially great when going up steep hills, i've found.

Also, every bike mechanic i've talked to has no problem with working on friction shifting.

Also, in terms of how many speeds, isn't the gear range more important than the number of gears? I might be wrong, but would be curious. I was looking at my friends' Kona, which has a bajillian speeds. Her special "granny gear" in the back was the same as mine. So, she had a lot more gears, but not a larger range. Then, I put an 8-speed casette on a different bike, but it was more speed oriented, and i have a much harder time going up hills, even tho i have more gears.

I guess i'm just curious about if having more gears really helps you out, or if the actual gear ration is more important.