September rides, bringing in the fall.

[Crankin]

I cannot believe this would be true. My Silque (basically a WSD Madone) is not that old and there were definite differences in the geometry. I get a lot of online stuff from Trek and much of it is for women, about the desirability of their bikes for women. It would be pretty awful if they thought we were stupid enough to believe that changing the saddle and bars makes a bike WSD. I, for one, have never fit right on a unisex bike, even if it was the right "height." My Kutoa was wrong in so many ways, but yes, I could stand over it.
We ended up not going to the Fluffernutter festival, because there is no place to park in Union Square. We usually use Spot Hero for situations like this, and there was nothing. The other choice was to drive and park in Harvard Square for a price and then walk 25 minutes, or worse, drive, park at the train, and either do the walk or take a bus. This is an area being revitalized; eventually they will have a trolley stop, but on a line we can't easily access.
So, we went to our son's house and visited/had dinner. This must be the week for dumb accidents, because I walked in the house and didn't really look, and walked right into a trunk/coffee table in a place where there was nothing before. I kind of fell halfway over on my left side and gauged my left shin. There's a minor scrape, but I got ice and Arnica on it right away, so while it hurts to the touch, I am not in pain there. However, my whole side is kind of aching, like when you turn around and run into a wall. Oy... my son was laughing at me, because this is something he would do.

[Crankin]

Cross bikes are notoriously not women specific, in that by nature, there is long reach and geometry to help go through sand, etc. Gravel bikes are a bit better, but after I did my research, the Specialized gravel bike for women seemed to be the only one I would even consider to try. In the end, that's what made my decision.

[Crankin]

I just decided, in the end, I didn't want another drop bar bike. Maybe a silly reason, but I wanted a bike that was substantially different from the 2 I already had.

[ny biker]

Last night I compared the Checkpoints and one of the Domane carbon models -- men's and women's in frame size 54 (which is what my current bike is). They were identical. Paging through the road bike listings, all I saw were "women's" bikes, nothing labeled as a WSD bikes. Their "women's specific design" page says this:

"Every Trek road, mountain, or city bike with one or more WSD parts can be found in our Women’s collection. What differentiates a Women’s bike from a bike from our mainline collection varies by model. All Women’s models have WSD touchpoints, like saddles and handlebar width. Some Women’s models also have WSD frame geometry, wheel size, crank length, and stem length."

I don't see any easy way to find a frame with different geometry for women vs men. The bikes just say "women's" and that can just mean that the saddle is different. It looks like they are intentionally making it hard to find actual women's frames, so they must not have very many anymore, and they are trying to hide the fact that they are no longer offering them. And calling the men's bikes "mainline" is just an insult.

The bike that is offered through the program at my job is a Trek, a 2018 men's commuter for which there is no comparable women's model. It is sold out according to the Trek website. I was going to ask the company that handles the rewards program to issue a Trek credit to me for the cost of that bike, and then use the credit at the LBS toward a new Trek bike that fits me and would be useful. (So far I've sent the rewards company a message through their "contact us" page but haven't heard any response yet.) My current Trek road bike fits me well enough and I've been content with it, and it is the primary brand at the LBS, so I saw no reason not to get another Trek bike. I was assuming that bikes listed on their website as "women's" meant the frames were WSD, but that is clearly not the case.

The LBS handles other brands too (though I rarely ever seen any other brands in stock there). Instead of asking for a Trek credit, I could try to get a different Trek bike through the rewards program and then trade it in for something else. I would expect that to be a 2019 hybrid at the same price point as the one they show on their website. However I don't know if I could trade it in for full value. I hope I could, since I would be trading in a brand new bike, but I would have to talk to the shop owner about it. And if I want to try a different brand bike that's not in stock, I don't know how easy that would be since I have no idea what their policy is about ordering a bike that I might not want to buy once I have a chance to test it.

[ny biker]

How does the checkpoint compare to your trek that fits well?

I don't know. I don't know how to measure to get an accurate comparison.

I am doing a live chat with Trek now. This is what they say: "We found that the majority of women would rather have WSD touch points than a WSD frame."

He says I should just get a shorter stem.

I tried that with the old men's road bike, used the shortest stem possible and it wasn't short enough. When I tried the WSD Madone that I have now, it fit right off the rack, no messing around with stems or anything else.

He also claimed that the women's bikes have different handlebars and stems than the men's but that was not the case for the bikes I compared. When I pointed that out he "apologized for the inconvenience."

===
Looking at my bike shop's web site, they also carry All-City, Surly and Felt. However when I look at the list of bikes available for special order (none are currently in stock at the shop), not all models are shown -- for example for Surly the Vaya is not shown. Most of the All-City bikes are for 2018 or earlier.

This is turning into quite a project. I don't even really know what I'm looking for.

[north woods gal]

NY, I remember discovering the same thing as far as the men's and women's frames having the same frame specs on my old WSD Domane. Thinking it was way back in 2013 or so. Kind of surprised me. All I got for my Domane being a WSD, then, was a narrower handlebar, shorter stem and WSD saddle. That was enough, though, to make it the first and just about the, only, bike I've bought that needed no mods to make it fit me. Since, then, I've gone more and more to brands that don't really offer any WSD options, so I always have to change something on the bike to get a proper fit. Always need to change the saddle and go to a shorter stem, no exceptions. Same for cutting the handlebars on the MTBs to get a proper width. I'm okay with this, because I know what a proper fit is and how to do the mods needed to get it. A lot of gals do not and just go by the manufactures generic instructions about bike size and call it good. That's a shame.

[Crankin]

This is most disturbing and sleazy... trying the shorter stem on my 48 cm men's bike made it squirrelly as hell. This was with the same handlebars I have now and even shorter reach brakes they no longer make for Ultegra. Oh well, I don't think I'll be buying another road bike (I mean, 5 years down the road, would I at 70, really need one?), but if I do, I'm on to Specialized. And, btw, NY, I have an acquaintance who had a Felt WSD road bike. She is my height and really needed it. She sold it recently and bought a flat bar road bike/hybrid, but I am not sure if that's a Felt, too. But, I remember when she got the road bike and it was *really* nice.
So, as happens more and more lately, DH and I need motivation to get out there, 2 days in a row. I could have been convinced for a long ride, even though I really wanted to hike. However, my calves are still sore from walking Friday, on the bike trail. So, since we both seem to do better with destination rides, we decided since the only thing we needed to do was go to CVS, we could combine that with lunch at a café next door. Mind you, this is not the closest CVS, but it is the one we usually go to. We had thought we'd do some miles on the bike trail after riding there the longer way, but as we got going, we realized the café closes at 2, and we didn't want to rush. So, we ended up doing shorter, but considerably hillier, which was fine. I rode my Guru, first time since our trip. I didn't feel as weird with the change, and the truth is, I love the feel of this bike. It is cool and cloudy today, so I wore commuting knickers and a Terry Soleil hoodie with a SS base layer, and my vest. It was appropriate until we did the climb up Strawberry Hill, but then we were almost there. We both stuffed our vests in DH's trunk bag, thinking we would not need them after lunch. However, when we came out of CVS, it was colder, windier, and then when we started off in the shortest way back home, rain drops were spritzing! However, they did stop, once we crossed the highway.
Could have done more, but, who cares. Not sure I'll get any riding done until after I come back from visiting my son, unless I ride to work tomorrow. Tuesday is rainy and cool and Wed. still chance of rain and thunderstorms. I really want to go on the group ride Wed., as it's an 80th birthday party for a man I like, but I suspect it will be cancelled.

[north woods gal]

I love the All City bikes for their frames. Very, very traditional, strong, but not overbuilt. Really bring out the best in the ride quality of steel. Love my Surly bikes, too, but Surly builds their steel bike frames heavy enough to withstand a nuclear blast. My factory complete Log Lady, for instance, compares, nicely, in ride quality and handling to my MUCH more expensive, fully custom Gunnar Ruffian. My next bike will be another All City and it will be used for pavement work. Probably go with a Macho Man flatbar or a Nature Boy single speed and then convert it to flat bar. After riding my light, fast, super easy rolling steel single speeds all summer, it's really, really hard for me to go back to riding big heavy bikes for road work. No point in it. I'm not packing heavy loads, after all. Just making daily rides on pavement for the sheer joy of riding.

But even in my trail riding, I'm now thinking lighter and faster. My Log lady, though geared a bit higher than my Krampus single speed conversion, nevertheless pedals easier than the Krampus. Those big heavy 29x3 tires/wheels on the Krampus are harder to pedal single speed, no doubt about it. You can do the calculations in gear inches to determine what gear ratio you need for a particular type of riding, but wheel/tire weight is also a big factor in how easy a bike pedals and how easily it rolls. That's one part of the equation that is not easy to calculate.

[north woods gal]

Speaking of single speeds, did 23.3 miles of pavement on a beautiful fall morning, this morning. Almost seemed effortless to pedal those miles on such a day. My conditioning is paying off, to be sure, but those miles just seemed to fly by, all the same.

Got home and wanted more, so I switched bikes to the Log Lady and then Star and I did 2.5 miles on the trails. The Log Lady is a racing bike, as in XC MTB racing, and it handles like it. Very fast, agile and nimble, yet stable. Delightful trail bike to ride on a fall day.

[ny biker]

Thanks all for your input.

This is my current road bike: 2010/trek/madone47wsd. This is the men's bike I had before it: 2003/trek/2000.

I am 5'7". The above bikes were both 54.

I went to the LBS today. They didn't have a Checkpoint in a 54 for comparison. They offered to let me try a 54 Domane but I declined for now because it was raining. The reason they wanted me to try it was to show me that the frame geometry of the current bikes is way different than it was 7-8 years ago. (Apparently my 2010 bike is retro, not "modern." Go figure.)

I am really not happy with Trek right now, because I think their website is intentionally misleading instead of being straightforward about a big change in their products. However I am happy with the bike shop, and have a long history with them. And I think they are really mostly a Trek dealer. I think I am willing to try out a Trek because of my relationship with the bike shop. If I can't work with their fitter to make a Trek work, I will ask about the other brands. Of course I still haven't heard from the company that handles the free hybrid bike to find out what they will substitute for the 2018 sold-out bike on their website. Until I get that information, I will not move ahead with test rides, etc., since the whole point here is to save a chunk of cash on a new bike.


The main reason I went to the bike shop today was because my Madone's rear wheel squeal (or Mavic moo, as my friend calls it) is worse now than it was before. I rode 58 miles yesterday and it mooed a lot from almost the first mile. Other than that, it was a great ride. I was the leader and I posted it on two bike club schedules. I ended up with 19 people total. And for the first time in a long time I ran out of cue sheets at a ride -- usually most people use a Garmin or Ride with GPS on their phones, so they don't take paper cue sheets, but yesterday most of the riders were old-school low-tech (as I am). Fortunately I knew the route well enough that I could give my cue sheet to someone else.

There was rain early in the morning but the roads were mostly dry by the time we started the ride. Most of the other riders were faster than me (I ride at the low end of the ride category pace) and I think most of them skipped the first rest stop. So I didn't see more than half of them after the ride start. Which is not ideal, but doesn't really bother me. I still had a couple of people to ride with and the weather turned out to be great, with temps in the 70s, partial sun and humidity lowering as the day went on. We had a brisk NE sea breeze when we were near the Chesapeake Bay but that was only for a few miles. Overall it was a great day and I'm glad we had nice weather for a change.

Now it's raining again, and will continue to rain for a few days. So it was a good time to take the bike to the shop to try to resolve the Mavic moo once and for all. I started a different thread on that, and will update it.

[ny biker]

I am impressed that you found those numbers! And your understanding of frame geometry is also impressive, Sheila.

I agree that it would make sense to try the Checkpoint in a 52. When I go back to the LBS to pick up the Madone with the new rear wheel, I will see if they have one in stock.

I don't actually have a Domane, I was just looking at one as an example of current frame geometry being very different from older bikes, and had thought about getting one when I first started looking into the current Trek offerings.

Thanks!

[ny biker]

Ok, looks like the size 52 is comparable to your 2010 bike..

Trek checkpoint size 52
Stack: 549
Reach: 379
HTA: 71.6 deg
STA: 74 deg
HT: 10.7
ETT: 536

Stack and reach, the most important numbers, are very close. This Head tube is a bit more slack, which is expected for a bike that may be taken off road. Sounds like it’s actually very like your Domane. Do you know what step length is on the Domame? Is it the stock stem?

I found the numbers for the old Trek 2000 men's bike from 2003, on page 42 of this. No stack or reach numbers, but there is this:
HTA: 73.0
STA: 74.0
ETT: 54.4

Standover comparisons:
CP 54: 78.9
CP 52: 77
Madone 4.7: 74.0
2000: 77.2

EFF for the Checkpoint 54 is longer than for the old Trek 2000.

It's really interesting to compare the details for the different bike frames in different sizes. A 54 for one is quite different from a 54 for another bike.