Concussion denial: in mixed marital art (or UFC) fighting like bike helmet debate?

[Crankin]

All of this vindicates my decision to never let my sons participate in football.

[Eden]

All of this vindicates my decision to never let my sons participate in football.

Frontline aired a really good documentary based on a book of the same title called League of Denial about the dangers of repeated traumatic brain injury in football (though it could certainly apply to any sport where there may be repeated head injuries). You should certainly feel vindicated - I believe I recall that when the scientists were able to study the brains of teens who played football and died from other causes, that they found early but visible and noticeable changes to those brains from TBIs.

The hospital that I work at has been developing a helmet with accelerometers and other sensors that is supposed to help decide how to pull players out of games before they actually reach injury stage, and standards on how long to keep them out, but I can't help but think that the damage is more subtle than we really know and even using this technology will be too little, too late.

[ny biker]

There do seem to be improvements in the head injury protocols for high school football players, such as not allowing them to play or practice for a certain time period after a hit. I don't know how widespread they are though. I think real changes will have to come from parents and coaches believing that they're necessary.

I read something yesterday online, I'll try to find it later. It was written by an NFL player about how he felt after gaining a better understanding of the risks of TBI and football. He said that he doesn't regret his involvement in the sport but if he had children he doesn't know if he'd allow them to play it.

As for things like boxing and MMA, I really don't get the appeal. There's a certain silliness in all sports, when you really think about them -- trying to throw a ball through a hoop or to kick it into a net or hit it with a stick and then run around in a circle. Or to run or ride a bike really fast from point a to point b just to say you were fast. But when the entire objective is to hit someone until they fall down, to me that's not a sport.

[lauraelmore1033]

I skimmed an article a while back, in which a neurosurgeon claimed that helmets do little to protect the brain in cycling accidents. I'll see if I can find it, but I seriously doubt that is true. But...
When I was thrown into the street, my broad backside took the brunt of the impact and my head hitting the pavement was kind of a secondary bounce that cracked my helmet in three places. It's possible that if I'd gone down head first (and not in the recumbent position) there would have been significantly more damage.

[ny biker]

Here is the article from the NFL player.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/12/29/dbr...sion-movie-cte

[Aromig]

Interesting thread. I have two boys in sports -- one in 7th grade and one in 9th grade. Before starting 7th grade both boys were required to do a screening baseline for concussion purposes. After taking a knee to the head in a scramble after a basketball the officials stopped the game and did some "field" tests to see if they thought my son had concussion symptoms. He was not allowed to go back to practice until we took him for an additional screening to compare his tests to the baseline tests. When a new improved football helmet became available - the community did fundraising to try to buy them as soon as they were available for our high school team and Tony Stewart (Nascar Driver) ended up paying for the helmets.

So I think protocols are getting better along with better education of coaches, officials, etc. It may help that I live in Indiana where the NCAA is headquartered (and is facing litigation regarding concussions). However, I've also read articles where some famous football players have admitted to "cheating" on their baseline test so that their follow up tests won't show as much damage. When they're adults, well, that's their decision. But I also understand that it's not "adults" learning and getting into the sports -- its 3rd, 4th, and 5th graders in the beginning where there is no informed choice or decision.

As for MMA, I don't get it, and I think its little more than modern day gladiators. But I'm not going to tell adults how to spend their time if they want to partake in that kind of sport.

[shootingstar]

But what has been happening with NFL and head concussions for the professional players....are still players wearing helmets.

What is being lost in all this, that a sudden fast and hard jolt the head at a high short velocity without the head hitting a wall, pavement, hard object, can also cause some concussion for the brain jostled. My emergency medicine doctor-sister stressed this to me.

I have a close friend in her 40's. About 3 years ago her car was rear-ended. She had her seat-belt on ..but she had whiplash injury, had to wear a neck collar brace..and she also had a concussion. Her head did not hit anything. She had some headaches, found bright light very hard on her, was occasionally dizzy, etc. Unfortunately unlike me, she didn't take several wks. off from work. She should have because it took longer for her to recover.

Then she sustained 2nd concussion...when she slipped on ice while snowshoeing...just last year.

Multiple concussions are cumulative. The brain doesn't become "stronger".

One of my sisters and her hubby, have their 3 teenage children (1 girl, 2 boys with eldest now 18 yrs. old) each play in no-contact ice hockey leagues in Metro Toronto. This is for the last few years. Not every city offers this. Take advantage of it. My sister is licensed pharmacist working in a teaching hospital. Yes, they deal with concussions. The hospital actually produced an patient education video which she passed on to me during my rehab.

So at my end, I had immediate family expertise to cross-check with my attending physician.

As for football for kids, no comment. Still reliant on child admitting they don't feel right and the coach pulling off the player from field. A lot of teens may not want to even admit they feel not right because they don't want to disappoint themselves, coach or team.

I'm not sure if this will finally nail the importance..concussion is a form of brain injury. Head injury doesn't quite adequately describe the nature of the injury. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...C6D7DD80D4F230
Aromig, it is suggested to ask a physician next time about concussions in general.

[VeganBikeChick]

There's actually a discussion on Q radio show (www.cbc.ca) about concussions tonight. It was a very interesting discussion.

[rebeccaC]

The lazer helium is a nice helmet.
In a well-designed and manufactured helmet mips can mimic a layer of cerebral fluid and allow for a small level of low-friction movement. It and some other newer technologies (conehead etc.) bring some small improvements to protection….that’s good. People shouldn’t be thinking though that in a hard impact today’s bicycle helmets will prevent the concussion effect of blood vessels stretching or tearing against the skull or the damaging of cranial nerves….simply because of how the brain will move with impact. There could be a helmet that does offer stronger protection but it would be too heavy, hot and not stylish enough for the average person....perhaps future technologies will get us closer. There are a number of ways a helmet can help with head injuries though and that makes it important enough to wear one. I’ll repeat the idea of learning how to instinctively fall in ways that protects against head impact is important to help with concussions especially at the slower speeds of most bicyclists.

[Aromig]

I know that concussions cause cumulative damage. I also know that concussions still occur with helmets. However my previous comment about football helmets was related to the fact that some helmets are better than others and new versions are being developed all the time. We're not going to get rid of football in high schools. It's just not going to happen. I'm happy that our community schools have invested in the most modern helmets that are better than the old helmets. Because let's face it - there would be kids out there playing that sport even if they couldn't get a helmet.

Concussions are going to happen in any sport. I've actually read somewhere (I couldn't find it quickly) that more kids in soccer suffer concussions than in football. Am I going to tell my kids they can't play soccer and basketball (their chosen sports)? No. I believe that the positive outcomes that are certain to occur in those two sports outweigh the potential harm. Is that a different equation with football? Probably. I take risks when I ride my bike too. Am I going to quit riding bikes? Nope. I'm just going to be as prepared as I can be. Am I going to be educated about it and keep an eye out for symptoms? Yes. Am I grateful that the schools are now providing more training to trainers, coaches, officials to recognize symptoms? Yes. And I have talked to our physician about it - after the scare I mentioned above where my son was hit in the head in a basketball game (not football). I was also grateful that the schools had taken the risk seriously and that ALL athletes are required to do the prior screening (not just football).

With respect to the kids admitting that they don't feel well -- there are some symptoms that kids can't mask (pupil reactions, etc.) I've seen many a kid removed from the game by officials even when the kids insisted they felt fine and could stay in the game. I'm glad that the IHSAA (Indiana High School Athletic Association) has vested its officials with the capacity to make those calls because let's face it, there are kids/parents/coaches who might not make the right call. Some researchers at Indiana University are testing a goggles like device that scans eye activity that will take out the subjective testing to immediately detect concussions. I'm excited that we'll likely see this technology on the sidelines of a lot of sports in the next year or so removing the human part of the screening all together (then again, it will still take someone noticing that someone took a hit to the head in order to decide to screen them).

There's still a lot of work to do. Concussions are serious. I'm glad I live in the times I do where the risks are being taken seriously, many people are doing research and developing new knowledge and products. It was a lot different 40 years ago.

[salsabike]

Well said, Aromig.

[shootingstar]

The hospital that I work at has been developing a helmet with accelerometers and other sensors that is supposed to help decide how to pull players out of games before they actually reach injury stage, and standards on how long to keep them out, but I can't help but think that the damage is more subtle than we really know and even using this technology will be too little, too late.

I would tend to agree with you Eden, that it is abit too late. AFter all they would only be pulled out of game if the reading was too "high".

Crankin, I know someone at work who told me as a boy, his mother forbade him from playing high school football because one of his classmates died during football practice.

Interestingly after telling some people about the nature of my injury, I hear more stories ...that people were unwilling to disclose from the past OR they didn't understand the seriousness of what happened to them when they got knocked down with their head involved.

Rebecca: MMA as you may know has some origins in kung fu fighting where the priests created these "exercises" / manoeuvres partially for defense as well as for health/exercise reasons. I read a book of an American who was one of the rare non-Chinese allowed to live and learn the art. It really is amazing for the original skill and manoeuvres...which I don't see much some of the original tenets in MMA.

What a lot of people don't realize that even in tai chi (that gentle type of exercise), there are some simple manoeuvres for deflecting your opponent's oncoming fist or how to stand, centre your weight to withstand the push of several people against you.

Roussey needs go back to martial arts origins of meditation and the power of deflecting opponent violence without overly hurting the other person.

[rebeccaC]

Roussey needs go back to martial arts origins of meditation and the power of deflecting opponent violence without overly hurting the other person.

I see the UFC as simply a blood sport akin to organized dogfighting and the antithesis of Aikido.

Within self-defense Aikido has taught me how to protect the other and myself by blending with the energy of the attack and redirecting it back using compassion, efficiency, control and restraint. For me though and more importantly, from that first step through the doorway of the dojo and my first bow it’s been an 18 year continuing self-discovery/learning journey on the art of leading a peaceful life with inner harmony and courage. As my first sensei use to say….peace begins within. I too wish Roussey and everyone could benefit from those attributes.

….and I agree that both Tai Chi and Aikido can complement each other well as you develop your skills.

[rebeccaC]

I skimmed an article a while back, in which a neurosurgeon claimed that helmets do little to protect the brain in cycling accidents. I'll see if I can find it, but I seriously doubt that is true. But...
.

a good helmet can help eliminate some of the impact on the outside of the head but your brain can still move and hit the inside of your skull. knowing the symptoms of a mild+ concussion is good info to have....and for helping others. i always try to focus on bike safety but sometimes quick accidents happen. i not only wear a helmet, i've also learned how to land/roll in different falls for more head protection.
aikido keeps working itself into my posts in this thread

[zoom-zoom]

a good helmet can help eliminate some of the impact on the outside of the head but your brain can still move and hit the inside of your skull. knowing the symptoms of a mild+ concussion is good info to have....and for helping others. i always try to focus on bike safety but sometimes quick accidents happen. i not only wear a helmet, i've also learned how to land/roll in different falls for more head protection.

MIPS helmets can help with the rotational impacts inside the skull, too. When I crashed this Fall (on loose, rutted gravel going down a hill and trying to avoid my kid in front of me and an oncoming car) I destroyed my helmet (dented and cracked, but its contents were unscathed). It had needed replacing for a while for being just flat-out nasty from years of use. We replaced it with a Lazer MIPS model.