Trek Silque vs Madone

[Crankin]

Yup, I have the Kuota and the Guru. I also am not into paint jobs, decals, or other cosmetic looking stuff. I just want good components on a bike that fits.

[Crankin]

I read the review. The fact that the bike is described as upright makes me think I should just stick to the Madone. As far as the reach, I have never had an issue reaching the shifters with Ultegra, in the drops, it's the brakes. They don't make the short reach brifters in Ultegra anymore and I'be had to scrounge for parts on E Bay when I've needed them for the Kuota. My Guru has short reach 105s, but they are not quite as short reach. The Madone I rode was about like the Guru. I can deal with that, as long as I have a short and shallow bar, which I will get if it's not on there. I have smaller hands with long fingers; nothing like people with really teeny hands. I rode in the drops a lot on the trip, but that was most on flats. I just don't like descending enough to get down low. However, with the handling of that bike, I might.
Of course, getting the DI2 might help with the reach, but I don't know if it's worth it, as well as my tendency to hate change.

[Crankin]

Yes, I was surprised to see the Silque described as upright in that article, since the geometry is the same! I thought I would try both, to see if the inserts made any difference, but I am wary. The roads in Portugal were average to smooth, but I did ride on cobbles and that sucked more than I can describe. However, it would suck for me on any bike. I was jealous of those on the trip who used hybrids during those stints.
If the bike is so new, it might be hard to find one to test and I am not up for months of testing. I really, really want to use the local shop, although I could go to a bigger one that I trust, about 15 miles away. It's the shop my son raced for and we know the mechanic. He's the one that sold my son the now classic Serrota, which my other son now rides. I have an errand to do shortly, and I may stop in at the shop, but there is a specific person I want to deal with and I don't know his name (he fitted my friend on a Project One bike and spent hours with him). I do not want to deal with the owners. He is mean and she is crazy. I hate walking in and she yells, "Hi, Scott's mom." Of course, I drive by this shop at least 10 times a week...

[ny biker]

I am wondering how it is described as upright and while at the same time having the same geometry as the Madone. Unless the Madone is also considered an upright bike.

Perhaps in the smaller frame sizes, they are the same or very similar, but in larger sizes there is more of a difference?

[ny biker]

(Confused yet?).

Yes.

But at some point I will need to understand this sort of thing. I have no plans to replace my Madone anytime soon, but in the back of my mind, I think when I do I will look into touring bikes. But in order to make any informed decisions, I will need to understand the differences in geometry and why they matter. So far I haven't gone beyond finding out that neither the Surly LHT or Trek's version of a touring bike comes in a women-specific version, and this is a concern for me since the Madone WSD is a far better fit for me than the men's Trek bike that I used to ride.

But as I said, I have no immediate plans to ditch the Madone. I needed a slightly narrower handlebar than the stock version, but otherwise it fits me fine and does what I want a road bike to do. My only caution to Crankin (or others considering a mass-produced carbon frame) is that it is more fragile than an aluminum or steel bike, so you need to be careful about it leaning it on things, turning it over, etc, in order to prevent anything from hitting the frame.

[Crankin]

Murienn, I am not going to do trig to figure this out! I am just not that wonky. I think I have eliminated the Silque. Yes, I have effective top tube and the other measurement (I can't remember what you said and I can't leave this page without losing what I've typed!). I have a very detailed computer printout and drawing from my Guru build. Here's the deal. When I went for the Guru fitting, he kept trying to make it more "relaxed" than my carbon bike, knowing that I would be using that bike for longer, hillier rides. I kept saying, "no, no, no!" until it felt somewhat similar to what I am used to, when I was on the fitting machine. So, the seat tube is appropriately high, while the seat tube on my Kuota is effectively cut down to nothing, to make the bike fit me. Does this make sense? The Kuota is essentially a men's 48 cm that has no seat tube and no head tube. I don't understand all the talk about spacers, etc. All I can say that I am now used to feeling very tight and cramped on my bike, and I like that feeling. However, when I rode the Madone, it has a sloped top tube, and the seat tube was not like my Kuota, more like the Guru. So I felt like I was riding a small bike that felt smooth and not twitchy, like the Kuota. I am used to the Kuota, but I know I can get a bike that feels smooth and is not twitchy. The biggest issue I have with my Guru is the height of my saddle in relation to the seat tube. I know this doesn't explain what I feel, but when I get on my Kuota, I clip in with one foot, push off and go. I am seated and clipped in with both feet in less than a second. With the Guru, I feel like the bike is too big when I try to start. It's like the saddle is too high, but it is not, because when I actually start riding, it's perfect. I have crashed a few times in my driveway because I jabbed myself in the azz with the saddle and my shorts got caught on the Guru. I have to clip in, and consciously push myself what feels like very far *up* and then make sure I am seated, then clip in with the other foot. If there's even an inch of an incline, I can't start gracefully. I am not great at hill starts on the Kuota, but this is very weird when it happens on the Guru. This has something to do with the geometry, and it may be that I am just used to a bike that is small and cramped. I actually like that feeling, it feels safe. My saddle is not too low on either bike.
NY, I am not sure what issues you have had with the carbon on "mass produced" bikes. I have had 2 carbon mass produced bikes and I don't particularly take stellar care of my bikes! I throw my Kuota in the back of my station wagon multiple times in a season and lean my bike up against all kinds of stuff. It's fallen over, and I've had a couple of crashes, too. There are no cracks at all. I had it checked after the crash I had when it was pretty new. I had even more crashes with my Trek 5200, as I was still a fairly new rider when I got it. DH is willing to pay for the more custom Project One, but I am not. The Madone I rode in Portugal was a bottom of the line, and even that felt better than my Kuota. I knew the components were crap and those things all can be changed.

[Crankin]

You know, I think that may be it. It's been pouring out, so I am not going out to the shed to check! I know I am not going crazy, because once, earlier in the spring, I was riding with Hirakukibou, and she saw this happen as I was taking off from a busy intersection. Her comment was, "I see exactly what you mean."
I don't find the dismounting as weird. I think I did at first, though. I do love the smooth feel of the titanium, but the cornering still does not feel the way the Madone did. The Madone felt like a small bike and the Guru doesn't.
DH still wants me to test both. I guess it can't hurt.

[Crankin]

Explain slack head tube and trail, please!
I am sure they had to do stuff to fit the 700c wheels. It makes sense. I have experienced toe overlap on the Guru, while turning very tightly into my uphill driveway. I am conscious of this now, and generally will ride past the driveway and approach from the other direction, as this also gives me some momentum up the hill. It's the only place I've had this. Never had it on the Kuota. My old Trek had 650 wheels and so did the first road bike I had (a Cannonade).