F'ing Root(s)

[zoom-zoom]

So I have had 3 legitimate crashes on my new Salsa El Mariachi 3 29er. The bike fits me like a dream and is so comfortable and easier to operate/move than my previous Cannondale F5 26er. But gotdammit I can't seem to handle some roots at all! There is one spot where I have had 2 reasonably bad crashes (the other crash was when my handlebars tagged a tree in a narrow spot). I have hit the SAME root and had my bike slide out sideways from under me. It's in a spot on a slight downhill and camber going into a turn. The root is roughly perpendicular of the trail. DH has nearly lost it in the same spot. I have actually gone down hard.

I never had issues with this spot on the old bike. Is it the tires? Previous bike had Kenda Nevegals, current bike has Conti Trail Kings. I read mostly really glowing reviews of the TKs, but a few people had the same sort of root slip issues that I have had. I have noticed I seem to slip off of roots in other areas, too, but I suspect part of that could be the loose leaves covering the trail (which really unnerve me) and maybe tire pressure was too high. I never had issues with the Nevegals, but that was on a different bike with smaller wheels.

Unfortunately these 2 falls have really made me gunshy and now I am mistrusting my abilities, my tires, the trail...and I keep adding to my bruise collection and the first 2 fingers on my right hand are all swollen from hitting my hand (fell to the left, so I think I whacked my hand/fingers on my bike--handlebars were totally rotated around).

Advice?

[Irulan]

I'd check tire pressure.

[zoom-zoom]

I'd check tire pressure.

We lowered it after I crashed, but I was in no mood to go back and try it out again. They were on the firmer side, perhaps. The odd thing is the time DH nearly wiped-out from the same root he was riding his Mukluk with high single-digits psi. I hate that damned root. I have managed to gouge the bark off of a root near it with my frame both times that I've crashed.

[TigerMom]

Do you have tubeless tires so that you can run even lower pressures with better grip?
______________________________________________________
2012 Specialized Amira Elite, upgraded carbon handle bars, Jett saddle 143mm switched to 145mm 2012 Selle Italia Max SLR Gel Flow saddle
2010 Santa Cruz Juliana with R kit and Crampon pedals
2011 Specialized Ariel Sport,suspension post,Serfas Rx Women's Microfiber saddle (sold)

[thekarens]

I don't have any good advice, but I wanted to thank you for the thread title. it made me smile. You can't go a foot on trails around here without encountering roots and I can't count the number of times a root has caused my rear tire to go sliding to the left or right. They are one of the biggest inspirations for me going tubeless and low pressure.

[zoom-zoom]

I think I can go tubeless with the Trail Kings...just not sure I'm ready to make that leap. For every good post I read about them I read at least 1 more where people have had issues. I've read sort of mixed reviews of running tubeless on the Trail Kings (a few posts about tiny holes in the sidewall where sealant leaks through). I'd probably want to switch to a different tire to try that.

My guess is I was running ~30psi when I've had the slide-out and bouncing-off-roots issues. I really need to use a better pressure gauge when inflating my tires, since our floor pump doesn't seem to be very reliable for anything other than higher pressure tires. I could probably be running closer to 25psi.

[ridebikeme]

Ahhh I can totally relate. New England is known for it roots and rocks, and I have to admit there are times where I also think "WTF?" For me personally, 30 PSI is WAY too hard, so I might suggest checking with others in your area that are roughly the same size as you are. If I remember correctly, you still own your C-dale, so a good test might be to swap tires and see what your thoughts are then. I know that I've mentioned earlier that I thought the Kenda Nevegals were a great tire, especially in mud, wet leaves etc... this is your opportunity to see what your thoughts are. Let us know if you are able to check the Kendas out; it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as well!!

Don't let this section of trail keep you away from your bike, perhaps try another section to gain back your confidence... you'll be cleaning that section in no time!

[Hi Ho Silver]

Maybe the problem has to do with riding technique. You used to ride a 26er but now you're riding a 29er. I would guess that the bikes have different geometries and different vertical & horizontal centers of gravity. If that is right, your riding technique may need to be changed somewhat for the new bike. For example, it might require a lot more forceful body english to keep the bike (with those larger heavier wheels) on track, or it might be a matter of shifting your body position more radically than with the 26er.

[Catrin]

...
Unfortunately these 2 falls have really made me gunshy and now I am mistrusting my abilities, my tires, the trail...and I keep adding to my bruise collection and the first 2 fingers on my right hand are all swollen from hitting my hand (fell to the left, so I think I whacked my hand/fingers on my bike--handlebars were totally rotated around).

Advice?

This is where I was by the end of summer, though it was dust that I kept wiping out on rather than roots. I've no constructive advice to give as you are far more advanced than I, but I wanted to say being gun-shy. I hope your fingers feel better soon. I am sure you will work this out, and the others have good ideas. (((Zoom)))

[zoom-zoom]

Ahhh I can totally relate. New England is known for it roots and rocks, and I have to admit there are times where I also think "WTF?" For me personally, 30 PSI is WAY too hard, so I might suggest checking with others in your area that are roughly the same size as you are. If I remember correctly, you still own your C-dale, so a good test might be to swap tires and see what your thoughts are then. I know that I've mentioned earlier that I thought the Kenda Nevegals were a great tire, especially in mud, wet leaves etc... this is your opportunity to see what your thoughts are. Let us know if you are able to check the Kendas out; it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as well!!

Don't let this section of trail keep you away from your bike, perhaps try another section to gain back your confidence... you'll be cleaning that section in no time!

Ahhh...I can't swap the tires, since old bike was a 26er. DH and I may swap tires, just to see if what he has on his bike handles these spots differently. I am suspecting that I simply was riding with too much air pressure. From what I'm reading the Nevegals are simply a soft, heavy tire (the heavy probably explains in part why that F5 was such a slow dog of a bike, too), so perhaps that is why I never had issues with those, even at similar PSI. I'm also reading that larger, higher volume tires (the Trail Kings are 2.4 wide--really beefy things) can ride especially low, so maybe the PSI was the real issue).

[zoom-zoom]

Maybe the problem has to do with riding technique. You used to ride a 26er but now you're riding a 29er. I would guess that the bikes have different geometries and different vertical & horizontal centers of gravity. If that is right, your riding technique may need to be changed somewhat for the new bike. For example, it might require a lot more forceful body english to keep the bike (with those larger heavier wheels) on track, or it might be a matter of shifting your body position more radically than with the 26er.

You might be onto something, there. This bike definitely fits me better...not too big, not too small. Previous bike was at least a full size too small and had me really scrunched and upright. Any thoughts on how to handle slippery roots with a more aggressive posture on a bike? The problem with this root is I couldn't even see it. I knew roughly where it was, but it was under some leaves. A lot of the sketchy spots I've hit on the new bike were things I couldn't even prepare for, since they're under a thick layer of loose leaves. Nothing is wet, so the roots aren't slippery with moisture.

One thing DH suggested is making use of the Alternator dropout to move the rear wheel back a hair. This would give me a longer wheelbase and more stability...and perhaps make tackling slippery stuff a bit easier. Though it might make the bike a bit less responsive. Not sure about that tradeoff.

[zoom-zoom]

This is where I was by the end of summer, though it was dust that I kept wiping out on rather than roots. I've no constructive advice to give as you are far more advanced than I, but I wanted to say being gun-shy. I hope your fingers feel better soon. I am sure you will work this out, and the others have good ideas. (((Zoom)))

Thanks, Catrin. It's so frustrating and demoralizing, isn't it. I love having a bike that fits me so much better and has much better components--it's so much less work to ride and I'm able to ride longer before tiring--but I hate that I'm feeling like a bigger noob on the new bike than I did on the old bike.

[Hi Ho Silver]

You might be onto something, there. This bike definitely fits me better...not too big, not too small. Previous bike was at least a full size too small and had me really scrunched and upright. Any thoughts on how to handle slippery roots with a more aggressive posture on a bike? The problem with this root is I couldn't even see it. I knew roughly where it was, but it was under some leaves. A lot of the sketchy spots I've hit on the new bike were things I couldn't even prepare for, since they're under a thick layer of loose leaves. Nothing is wet, so the roots aren't slippery with moisture.

One thing DH suggested is making use of the Alternator dropout to move the rear wheel back a hair. This would give me a longer wheelbase and more stability...and perhaps make tackling slippery stuff a bit easier. Though it might make the bike a bit less responsive. Not sure about that tradeoff.

You could try the technique that those of us who ride without any suspension generally use to cope with obstacles :: Rise off the seat and slightly unweight the wheel that is having to overcome the obstacle (i.e., shift your weight toward the wheel that is most stable). So in your case, try shifting your weight toward the back (to get the front wheel past the root) and once the front wheel is past the root, shift your weight toward the front. The amount of body shifting that is needed is something that you have to learn from experience.

I don't have any idea if lengthening the wheelbase would help or hinder...sorry.

[zoom-zoom]

You could try the technique that those of us who ride without any suspension generally use to cope with obstacles :: Rise off the seat and slightly unweight the wheel that is having to overcome the obstacle (i.e., shift your weight toward the wheel that is most stable). So in your case, try shifting your weight toward the back (to get the front wheel past the root) and once the front wheel is past the root, shift your weight toward the front. The amount of body shifting that is needed is something that you have to learn from experience.

I don't have any idea if lengthening the wheelbase would help or hinder...sorry.

Here's the kicker--I'm not sure which wheel is sliding out...even after crashing in the same spot twice. I was watching for the root yesterday and never even saw it until I was on the ground just beyond it. There are 2 roots, maybe a foot or two apart. I'm almost wondering if both wheels are sliding out--each one on a different root. The 2nd root is the one with bark sheared-off where my bike frame has scraped along it. DH was right behind me and wasn't even sure what happened. He has had issues with this same spot on his fatbike (not enough to actually fall) and can't determine which wheel slid on him, either.

[tealtreak]

Thanks, Catrin. It's so frustrating and demoralizing, isn't it. I love having a bike that fits me so much better and has much better components--it's so much less work to ride and I'm able to ride longer before tiring--but I hate that I'm feeling like a bigger noob on the new bike than I did on the old bike.

Sorry - hope you heal quickly! Quick comment on the "return to noob" status- my sons who are way more technically capable than I (6 ft jumps, crazy crooked skinnys etc...) have all commented on the "relearning" process when ever they get a new bike. While an upgrade makes every thing easier ultimately, you are relearning your points of balance and realigning your center of gravity.....So hang in there (: