Oil-besotted place:Just a cyclist living here

[OakLeaf]

The problem for Ohio is that it's a rust-belt state, and it's being sold as a way to bring jobs back to the region.

Fixed that for ya. The reality is it will bring maybe a dozen permanent jobs to the entire state - a fair number of very short term jobs will come in, but almost all of those will be done by itinerant workers, so the temporary jobs benefits to Ohio will be in the form of hotel maids, fast food workers, and prostitutes. If there were money to fix the roads after the drilling crews leave, then it might bring road crews in for a few more temporary jobs, but we've already seen from pipeline installations that there's no money to repair the road damage.

We are not Canada's only customer.

We're not even the customer in mind. The point of Keystone XL is to get the oil to the Gulf of Mexico refineries, so that it can go onto tankers for export to China without having to cross the Rocky Mountains. None of it is intended for the USA in any event. Look it up...

[NbyNW]

We're not even the customer in mind. The point of Keystone XL is to get the oil to the Gulf of Mexico refineries, so that it can go onto tankers for export to China without having to cross the Rocky Mountains. None of it is intended for the USA in any event. Look it up...

I was not referring to refined petroleum product in my post. I was talking about the transport and refining of crude bitumen, which Alberta currently does not have the capacity to do. But we do have capacity in the gulf states. There IS money and jobs (many of them probably already existing, rather than new) in that. Would you like to see those jobs go abroad?

And yes, I'm perfectly aware that there is a great deal of debate and confusion as to what Keystone XL represents in terms of revenue and jobs, be the existing or new, temporary or long-term.

[OakLeaf]

Would you like to see those jobs go abroad?

No, I'd like to see them replaced and enhanced by clean jobs - sustainable energy and, not incidentally, family planning. Jobs vs. environment is a fallacy that's been used very effectively by some industries, but it's completely false. There is actually the potential for many more and more permanent jobs in sustainable energy than in resource extraction.

As the old adage goes, "The trouble is, every time a forest falls, the GDP goes up. With every oil spill, the GDP goes up. Every time a cancer patient is diagnosed, the GDP goes up. Is this how we measure economic progress? Economists must learn to subtract."

[NbyNW]

No, I'd like to see them replaced and enhanced by clean jobs - sustainable energy and, not incidentally, family planning. Jobs vs. environment is a fallacy that's been used very effectively by some industries, but it's completely false. There is actually the potential for many more and more permanent jobs in sustainable energy than in resource extraction.

As the old adage goes, "The trouble is, every time a forest falls, the GDP goes up. With every oil spill, the GDP goes up. Every time a cancer patient is diagnosed, the GDP goes up. Is this how we measure economic progress? Economists must learn to subtract."

I agree with the sentiment but I think the issues are very, very complex. The need to move away from fossil fuels and towards renewable energy sources is a decades old conversation. At minimum back to the oil embargo of the early 70's. So why haven't we been able to solve this problem in the intervening decades? Is it too hard of an engineering problem? Do we simply lack the political will? Can we have our cake and eat it too, or are we going to have to make some difficult decisions?

I have yet to hear of a magic switch we can flip to set us on the right track to sustainability.

[lph]

We haven't reached the tipping point. I've just read "The tipping Point", can you tell?

Seriously, I'm convinced it will happen, because it has to happen. I hope it will happen before it has to, because then we have a chance of "controlling" the situation, or at least adapting to it without too much upheaval. In the meantime I think every step in the right direction is a step towards the tipping point, whether it's a small personal step or a big step involving many people.

And there's no doubt that it will cost, in terms of unpopular and difficult decisions. But we are supremely adaptable as a species.

And if you all think this sounds like a lot of hot air, it's because I don't know anything about the specifics of the situation you're discussing so I'm theorizing freely

[shootingstar]

In the meantime I think every step in the right direction is a step towards the tipping point, whether it's a small personal step or a big step involving many people.

It is happening when it is happens, when people are personally affected.

I am certain the 2 proposed pipelines --1 running from Alberta oil tar sands right across east to west to the British Columbia coast and the 2hd straight south from northern Alberta right through the U.S. south...: seems Sooooo far away to TE members here.

Fine.

However the oil and energy industry is so powerful, so pervasive...that some of us here in TE forums, choose not to even talk about it. Just so complex...and some perhaps a (distant?) personal stake..where family members or friends are directly working in these industries.

For the longest while dearie, did not want it mentioned in his bio profile that he did work for an oil firm even after he retired...quite a number of years ago.

[OakLeaf]

Well, I don't want to beat this to death, but it isn't pie in the sky or some imaginary hippie future. It's now.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/20...il-or-gas-jobs

And this is in spite of the massive tax subsidies and externalities exclusions to the fossil fuel industries, compared with much smaller support to renewables (at least in the USA for both - I don't know how the comparison shakes out in Canada). Yes, there is a lack of political will, that comes from some very specific reasons, but the need for jobs and human health is beginning to outstrip lobbyists' influence.