Well I might be joining the peri club!

[owlice]

What goldfinch said. Seriously, look at evidence, not claims, facts, not fiction. And Brandi, from what you've posted, it seems to me your mind is definitely not open... to evidence, anyway.

Also sick of pseudoscience,
Owl

[pll]

I will echo what owl said -- be open minded.

I will also second the idea of talk therapy. It is a hard thing to do, but you reap the rewards in the long run. Some years ago, I needed to get through a rough spot. A friend (a pediatric psychiatrist) recommended a psychiatrist that was very good: she did talk therapy and was into all kinds of alternative therapies. I am the nightmare customer for doctors because I am not a believer in pills (or herbs), so we tried a number of alternatives between pills and types of therapy. For me, cognitive behavioral / talk therapy worked best. <life would be easier if I could enjoy some placebo effect.>

My point is that you can find a well qualified therapist. In my case, I found the perfect "bundle" of therapy and competence writing prescriptions. Having the same person do both was great as we started every meeting with an assessment of how the medications were working. I also worked with her in discontinuing them gradually,

Indeed, we know very little about brain chemistry and there is a lot of trial and error, but at least one part of medicine has a measure of scientific testing.

[OakLeaf]

Well it *has* been a long holiday, hasn't it.

I too am sick. I am sick of doctors taking advantage of a gullible old woman and a delirious old man to torture my father to death. He deserves very little, but he deserves a better death than he is getting from them. Any human being does.

I am sick of the practice of medicine bearing more resemblance to "The Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" than to anything any rational person would voluntarily choose.

And I am sick of "religions" of all kinds (doctrines that theirs is the One True Belief System) that would rather destroy a thing than learn about it.

[goldfinch]

Well it *has* been a long holiday, hasn't it.

I too am sick. I am sick of doctors taking advantage of a gullible old woman and a delirious old man to torture my father to death. He deserves very little, but he deserves a better death than he is getting from them. Any human being does.

I am sick of the practice of medicine bearing more resemblance to "The Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" than to anything any rational person would voluntarily choose.

And I am sick of "religions" of all kinds (doctrines that theirs is the One True Belief System) that would rather destroy a thing than learn about it.

I am very sorry about your father.

Believe me, I have educated myself on acupuncture and several other altmed practices. I never, but never, simply want to destroy something rather than learn about it. Never. I just a lot of questions and follow the evidence.

[shootingstar]

Hmmmm.

Goldfinch, I appreciate how important the scientific evidence is for validated medical treatments. But if someone does get better permanently or gets relief for several months because of a placebo effect AND the treatment is not rip-off expensive/won't bankrupt the patient or is subsidized, then ok.

I am certain now when my father gives the ok for chemotherapy for his prostate cancer, he will deteriorate and never return to his health now. I think what is keeping him afloat now and probably for next few months, alot of it is psychological now. The physicians (including my sister who is one) have left this decision entirely up to him and no pressure for chemo.

It truly is amazing how one's attitude and psychological equilibrium can have such a powerful effect..in staying alive.

As for Brandi, I second counselling. With the right therapist, you won't regret it.

[OakLeaf]

Sorry.

Let me put it more politely: "Evidence" that holds the experience of the patient as irrelevant is not an adequate foundation for practice. It may contain important building blocks, but when information derived from patient experience is expressly rejected, then it has no business creating patient experiences. This isn't number theory or theoretical physics. This is human beings' lives.

Every acupuncture doctor I know has a far higher opinion of north/western medicine than I do, and there's a reason for that: they work with medical doctors, while I worked with patients. Medical records and client interviews tell a very different story than cells under a microscope do.

[pll]

OakLeaf: A good doctor will take the patient experience into account. However, large medical trials show whether something can work or not, and they keep track of adverse effects. If you will, a large trial should will provide systematic evidence about the average effect (wash away placebo effects that may enhance the effect of a drug, or idiosyncratic reactions). That is the kind of evidence and information I want from doctors before tinkering with my system in any way. Something may not work for me, but at least it should have a reasonable chance of working and not just rely on anecdotal or incomplete evidence.

[goldfinch]

Oakleaf, absolutely the individual's own experience must be considered. Sometime I would like to hear more about issues you have heard from patients that have caused them or you to distrust their medical providers.

I actually have some mixed feelings about use of placebos. I can imagine circumstances where a placebo treatment is innocuous and even a bit helpful. After all, putting a band-aid on a child's skinned knee makes the child feel better. You paid attention to the child. You did something. A good placebo.

However, I do not have mixed feelings about the extensive resources that are poured into types of treatments that do not work, which involve clearly deceptive claims, which are scientifically unsound but are presented as if they were sound, and which have harmed people, such as through misdiagnosis and failure to get treatments that work. I do not want to search for truth in a hall of mirrors, where subjectivity is confused with objectivity.

In the face of lack of evidence for things like acupuncture some practitioners have argued that it is the power of the placebo we need to harness. But the problem is that for objective physiological outcomes there usually is no placebo effect. The effect appears limited to subjective, nonspecific effects. For example, there was a study comparing objective and subjective responses to placebo treatment for asthma, as compared to using an asthma drug. Only the drug improved lung function. But those who had the placebo reported subjective improvements significantly greater than the no treatment group. They felt better but they were not better. The study is discussed here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...os-and-asthma/

So, another risk. You get a treatment you believe in strongly and you feel better. But you are not better.

Well, I'll sign off now as I am starting to ramble and I am tired.

[missjean]

Brandi, you say "heart palps (which I have had for years but have been worse since Aug of this year)" Having had your blood tests, you might already know the answer, but just in case - I was having *lots* of heart beat irregularities that my regular Dr didn't seen very worried about. It was getting worse & worse and I was getting very worried.

I went for an annual check up with my GYN and told him about very heavy periods, (but not about the heart issues, I figured it was the wrong end of the body for him to have an opinion about.) He took blood and I found out I was very anemic. I started on iron pills and to my surprise, the heart issues have almost completely gone away.

I did some on-line research and found out that along with the usual symptoms of anemia, such as fatigue; heart irregularities, and thinning hair (which was also happening, and has stopped) can happen.



.

[Brandi]

What goldfinch said. Seriously, look at evidence, not claims, facts, not fiction. And Brandi, from what you've posted, it seems to me your mind is definitely not open... to evidence, anyway.

Also sick of pseudoscience,
Owl

Huh? What did I say or do to make you think this?

[Brandi]

Brandi, you say "heart palps (which I have had for years but have been worse since Aug of this year)" Having had your blood tests, you might already know the answer, but just in case - I was having *lots* of heart beat irregularities that my regular Dr didn't seen very worried about. It was getting worse & worse and I was getting very worried.

I went for an annual check up with my GYN and told him about very heavy periods, (but not about the heart issues, I figured it was the wrong end of the body for him to have an opinion about.) He took blood and I found out I was very anemic. I started on iron pills and to my surprise, the heart issues have almost completely gone away.

I did some on-line research and found out that along with the usual symptoms of anemia, such as fatigue; heart irregularities, and thinning hair (which was also happening, and has stopped) can happen.



.

My blood test w as both my regular gp and my gyno. They both put what tests they wanted. I am already feeling calmer. I have been feeling good. But looking into talking with someone and still going to my acupuncturist, Going to see how that goes. But seriously feel better. Still tired though.

[owlice]

Huh? What did I say or do to make you think this?

This:

i don't believe FDA approved drugs are actually any better then natural remedies to be honest and just because they are approved really means nothing. I can give many cases of approved drugs that have caused major harm. I will go with what I believe is right for me for sure.

Compare studies -- competent scientific studies -- for the "natural remedies" just as you would for "approved drugs." From what you posted, you are already discounting the efficacy of FDA approved drugs. That is NOT an open mind.

[Dogmama]

Methinks that a large part of why alternative (complimentary) medicine works is that we get a professional who listens to us. Our HMO driven doctors have 15 minutes. The placebo effect, power of suggestion, whatever you want to call it, is very strong. If my PCP is distracted, orders a bunch of tests & then reads them according to a chart, rather than according to my personal biochemistry, I am not getting optimal care. If an acupuncturist takes time to check my tongue, pulses & listens to my concerns, I feel like I've been heard and the treatment is working.

When I worked with Dr. Weil, an initial visit in his clinic (at a hospital) was 1.5 hours to 2.0 hours and conducted by an M.D. His/her case was discussed at their meetings and a careful treatment plan that included supplements, meditation, etc., was outlined. A friend of mine came back from the gulf war with a bad neurological condition that the V.A. could not cure. Dr. Weil's group has helped him stop trembling and greatly improved his quality of life.

Did supplements, meditation, etc., cure him? Or did the care of a professional have a huge impact? He will tell you that he doesn't care. As long as he can live his life using only a cane he's a happy camper.

So, rather than arguing alternative vs allopathic vs FDA vs supplements, we should be seeing how we can best blend our knowledge. Dr. Weil has said repeatedly that if he breaks his leg, don't give him lavender to calm him down - get him to a hospital!

[Crankin]

This.
No matter how much it is researched, it cannot be empirically proved that one type of psychotherapy works better than another. What does repeatedly show up is that "the relationship heals"
It may not be exactly the same, but you get my point.

[Brandi]

This:
Compare studies -- competent scientific studies -- for the "natural remedies" just as you would for "approved drugs." From what you posted, you are already discounting the efficacy of FDA approved drugs. That is NOT an open mind.

I think what I meant was weather herb or prescribed both can have there draw backs and some (not all) can cause bad side effects. I myself will look into both and choose (hopefully) something that works well for me. I was on a birth control that after being on the market for years was found to cause serious problems but lucky for me it didn't. So you can see where I might be a bit shy to taking anything.