Women in Sci-Fi and Fantasy/Game of Thrones

[Irulan]

V- I agree that some of the character development is interesting. After 4 1/2 books the "power imbalances"'are really wearing on me.

[lph]

Anyone else enjoy Neil Gaiman? I'm a big fan, started with the Sandman graphic novels, but I like his regular novels a lot more. Especially the short stories. And "American Gods" - funnily enough didn't like it at the first reading, slogged through one more time and now it's really grown on me.

Speaking of books I picked up Victoria Hislops "The Island", because we're going to Crete next week. It's set there, and the cover was full of praise and prizes. Gawd, what an awful book. Kept reading for a while out of a vague feeling of curiosity, but the writing is just so puffed-up and and ...trite. Reminds me of Adrian Moles "lo, the majestic vales of Scotland". You're told exactly what every character feels at every point.

My apologies to anyone who may love it...

eta:
found the following review, which was priceless:

"You must pay the rent!" the evil villain roared, twirling his diabolical mustache. He was her landlord, and he was an impatient man.

"But I can't pay the rent!" swooned the beautiful, hapless heroine. She was his tenant. Her breathtaking beauty was matched only by her saintliness. (...)

If this is your idea of a well-written story then you may very well like this book, which read more or less this way for 474 pages."

[OakLeaf]

Another Gaiman fan here, though I've only read a few of his. I really liked American Gods and the sequel Anansi Boys, and I don't know if I've ever laughed out loud at any book more than his collaboration with Pratchett, Good Omens.

Re being mediaeval, I call BS. It's fantasy. That means he can write gender roles and power relationships however he wants. I haven't read any Martin, but I've read way too much fantasy with drawn-out rape scenes obviously intended to titillate, even when the female characters eventually get their revenge.

On Paradise Lost ... Yeah. But I feel like Pullman's work deserves to be fully appreciated, and that means being familiar with his inspiration. All I remember from reading Milton in college is dreaming in iambic pentameter.

[Crankin]

Anyone else here not like sci-fi or fantasy?
I really hate it, and I am an avid reader. It was difficult for me when I was teaching, because so many of the popular YA books were in these genres. I just can't get into all of the "pretend." If I 'm not reading realistic fiction, then it's historical fiction or non-fiction.

[tulip]

Crankin, this thread is all about a topic that doesn't pertain to me, either. But what the heck, I'm glad y'all are having a good time. Carry on, I say!

[grey]

I read the first three of Martin's books when I was down with my back six years ago. Not uplifting material to someone when they cannot walk! Every time I thought something was going right, that one character had a chance at a better life, it was crushed in the most horrible manner imaginable. As a result, I found the books depressing, even if interesting and well wrtten.

I like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. He died before he could finish it but found Brian Sanderson to finish the books, spent his last days going over plots with his wife so fans would have closure. His books have powerful men and women in them, strong women with normal character flaws, same with men. I honestly think Jordan had a gift with developing characters - believable characters, and all memorable.

Happy to check out some of the other books mentioned in this thread. I love fantasy, am happy to escape life for a few chapters! My 15 year old niece is the same, we trade books back and forth (I warned her away from George Martin for now). Anybody have more suggestions?

[Catrin]

I love fantasy, science fiction is good but I prefer a well written fantasy series. Pratchett is wonderful, CJ Cherryh rocks. I used to like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series until it just went on too long...I will likely try it again at some point and perhaps start at the beginning. Mercedes Lackey is indeed a very guilty pleasure, and indeed I am reading some of her works from the 80s that I hadn't read before.

I've read most of Game of Thrones and have enjoyed it, but yeah, I wouldn't give his books to a 15 year old. I really don't understand why they call him the "American Tolkien" while I have enjoyed what I've read so far I disagree.

I like "speculative fiction", whatever they are calling that genre these days. It is still fantasy (what if WW2 had been won by the other side sort of thing). I especially like Judith Tarr and Harry Turtledove, though I haven't read either of them for some time. Stephen Hunt has also done some good writing, his books are a mixture of alternative history, steampunk and sorcery.

[Cataboo]

I read the first three of Martin's books when I was down with my back six years ago. Not uplifting material to someone when they cannot walk! Every time I thought something was going right, that one character had a chance at a better life, it was crushed in the most horrible manner imaginable. As a result, I found the books depressing, even if interesting and well wrtten.

i haven't read more than a few chapters of the first book yet, but from your description it sounds a lot like Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the unbeliever... Also a rape in one of those books, but the main character, who was so filled with self loathing to begin with, continued to loath himself even more. There were other strong female characters in the books from what I remember.

And from the first few chapters of Martin's book - I'm not sure I see a resemblence to Tolkein.

For old sci-fi, I somewhat expect odd treatment of women - a lot of the older sci fi authors sexed up their stories so that they could sell them to playboy, because well... it paid. The Catteni or Freedom series by Anne McCaffrey grew out of a short story (The Thorns of Barevi) that she wrote as an attempt for the erotica market. It does have a "forced rape" that ends up being enjoyed in the original short story, I can't remember if she kept that in the book series that she eventually wrote.

Anyone read any James H. Schmitz books? He was a writer in the 40s/50's that tended to have strong female heroines in the era of space operas. For the time period & compared to most others they were well done.

[zoom-zoom]

Has no one mentioned the ladies of Firefly/Serenity or Dana Scully (I still miss The X-Files after all these years and Firefly never got a fighting chance, thanks to FOX's antics). I'm not a huge sci-fi junkie, but I always loved these characters/actresses and the series' they were on.

[ivorygorgon]

I started reading the George RR Martin series, oh jeez, well over 10 years ago. I gave up after the second book, I think. I don't quite remember why, I just remember the third book coming out and I wasn't interested in picking it up. After reading the blog listed above (which I found really interesting and funny) I can see why I wasn't interested in reading further. I did recently download the sample of the first book onto my Kindle, because I have been seeing so much talk of this series lately, and I wondered why. So I am going to read the sample and see if it sparks my memory.

Someone above mentioned that Robert Jordan portrayed women well in The Wheel of Time Series, but I have to disagree. I think he tried to portray the women as strong, but I don't think he has pulled it off. He has receive a TON of criticism about his portrayal of women and the Aes Sedai in particular. I should mention that nonetheless I have been reading The Wheel of Time since 1991 and will see it through to the end - I think there is only one more book to go. I remember being worried in the late 90's that RJ wouldn't live to see the series through, and I was right. But Brandon Sanderson is doing a heck of job with the remainder of the series.

Anyone remember The Crystal Singer by Anne McCaffrey? I loved that book. Also, back in the day I read everything Piers Anthony. I recently re-read a few of the Xanth books, just for a giggle.

Overall, I tend to like epic fiction. I love huge tomes and well developed worlds that I can get into.

[Eden]

Cool thread - I haven't read or seen the series that got this started, but I have read some stuff that has good strong women as lead characters...

Kristen Britian's Green Rider series is full of strong women (not to mention they are good old fashioned page turners). It is set in a medieval type society, but gender roles are definitely not medieval.

I love Sherri Tepper - who couldn't be called anything but a feminist... most of her books center around either a strong female lead character or upside down gender roles.

Elizabeth Moons trilogy about Paksenarrion was quite good and she certainly qualifies as a strong woman.

and just for fun.... Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard series, while not particularly being about women or featuring them (but certainly the ones who appear are neither weak nor taken advantage of...), just because it is one of the most captivating pieces of fiction that I have read in a long, long time. He's got a real way with words and images.

I have to admit I do love Tolkein - though really just the Lord of the Rings... most of his other work I find rather like reading a history book - dry and dull.... Maybe it's just because I really started there - I think I was only in 5th grade the first time I read them, but every once in a while I still feel like pulling them out again.

I'll even admit to liking Anne McCaffrey - though I think her books generally read like SF romance novels.... guilty pleasure I guess... but her characters are always so likable, even the prickly ones.