career-limiting moves

[NbyNW]

Shootingstar,

I'm confused as to whether your original post was meant to be cautionary or funny, or for some other purpose.

If you meant it as a bunch of cautionary tales, well -- I hope you think better of your fellow TE'ers.

If you meant to put those anecdotes up for a laugh, well -- my reaction was to think that it's tragic that these people don't have better support, honesty, advice and couseling from their peers and mentors as they try to find a place for themselves in the world of work.

These days all you need to be screened out by HR is to be unemployed for a period of time. Doesn't matter how good your credentials and experience are.

[smilingcat]

These days all you need to be screened out by HR is to be unemployed for a period of time. Doesn't matter how good your credentials and experience are.

This mentality is just beyond me. I am more than acutely aware of the "damaged good" attitude toward the unemployed. However, if I were the hiring manager, I would be more than eager to hire the 99ers. The reason behind is quite simple. They are GLAD they got a job and you know what? They are going to be the best employees an employer could have. Being unemployed for a time is the greatest motivator for them to work hard and be the best possible. They don't want to be let go/fired the next time around.

I for one, am retired at a very young age. early 50's. Retired yes; but, I'm not idling. Quite busy in fact.

I get so annoyed by hiring managers with all their silly hangups. The resume isn't the format they want to see. mono fonts instead of Times Roman. Wrong size margin. Did/didn't have some personal info. More than a page long or two pages. Didn't list out all the publications... I've heard lots of stupid reasons which could cause you to pass on a really good (worthwhile) person for the organization. One of the biggest peeves I have, is I don't want to hire that person because of bad grammar. Engineers on the whole are really bad with comma splice. If I were looking for an English major that is one thing. But for an engineer, I'm more concerned about do they have enough/right knowledge and experience for the job. I don't care if they have written a best seller, have tatoos or body piercing.

Just don't lie and make stuff up on the application. Seen several resume with falsified information about college degrees. I'll give you a chance to explain.

[NbyNW]

You and I are on the same page, Smilingcat.

Now how to get the people making decisions to think that way?

[shootingstar]

I get so annoyed by hiring managers with all their silly hangups. The resume isn't the format they want to see. mono fonts instead of Times Roman. Wrong size margin. Did/didn't have some personal info. More than a page long or two pages. Didn't list out all the publications... I've heard lots of stupid reasons which could cause you to pass on a really good (worthwhile) person for the organization. One of the biggest peeves I have, is I don't want to hire that person because of bad grammar. Engineers on the whole are really bad with comma splice. If I were looking for an English major that is one thing. But for an engineer, I'm more concerned about do they have enough/right knowledge and experience for the job. I don't care if they have written a best seller, have tatoos or body piercing.

Just don't lie and make stuff up on the application. Seen several resume with falsified information about college degrees. I'll give you a chance to explain.

I had a job counsellor (through the program I described above) assess my resume. One of the biggest problems for an experienced candidate is presenting job and skill experiences in a manner that doesn't overwhelm the resume with too much text.

From the counsellor and from recruitment agencies, they all told me that HR /hiring managers do appreciate a couple of lines summarizing demonstrable achievements per job.

Also a chronological format for experienced folks, is desired these days instead of masking it/hiding it through just a skills-oriented resume. I know when I was hiring folks for other organizations, it annoyed me (and wasted some time) when I received only skills oriented resumes, because I couldn't figure out the person's work history and length of time to practice their claimed skills.

I really did want to present myself as having on-target skills, but also as active and well-rounded which is why I did include cycling at the end. The subtle message was: I am an experienced older worker, but healthy and take steps to de-stress from my jobs. It is an important message for any employer who has had to deal with chronic absenteeism, etc.

[zoom-zoom]

Just don't lie and make stuff up on the application. Seen several resume with falsified information about college degrees. I'll give you a chance to explain.

This is the part that creates a damned-if-ya-do, damned-if-ya-don't scenario for me. I have 2 BAs--one in English Lit., the other in Communications/Photography. Years ago our local Walgreens was looking for part-time help in their photo-lab. I had previous experience in commercial and 1-hour labs (and LOVED the 1-hour job...it was fun, flexible, and laid-back...I didn't mind working for peanuts, since I enjoyed what I was doing and helping people learn to take better photos). I should be a shoe-in for the job, right?

Wrong. I couldn't even get an interview, not even after calling a couple of times to verify that they'd received my application and to ask when interviews would be taking place--ie to make it very clear that I was very interested in the position. I had several people tell me that I would have been better off leaving out my college education...since entry-level employers see that and assume that the applicant is simply looking for something to fill their time until something better comes along. But nothing better does come along here in BFE Michigan.

It also doesn't help that I stayed home with my DS when he was little. When he was back to school full-days I looked for even just part-time work and applied for a couple of college admissions counselor types of jobs, including at my own university alma mater. Again, no luck. I couldn't even get an interview at my alma mater with great references from 2 people who work at the university.

I did manage to land an interview with a smaller college...then I found out that their policy is to interview EVERY person who meets the absolute minimum qualifications. What a waste of everyone's time. From the moment I walked into that interview I felt like they didn't really even have interest in hiring me, but were going through the motions.

I've not looked at much else, since. We're not destitute, but an extra income would sure help at times. This job market is really hard on people with a lot of education, but minimum or "stale" experience, especially if they live a half hour or more from the jobs. *sigh*

[smilingcat]

This is the part that creates a damned-if-ya-do, damned-if-ya-don't scenario for me. I have 2 BAs--one in English Lit., the other in Communications/Photography. Years ago our local Walgreens was looking for part-time help in their photo-lab. I had previous experience in commercial and 1-hour labs (and LOVED the 1-hour job...it was fun, flexible, and laid-back...I didn't mind working for peanuts, since I enjoyed what I was doing and helping people learn to take better photos). I should be a shoe-in for the job, right?

I've not looked at much else, since. We're not destitute, but an extra income would sure help at times. This job market is really hard on people with a lot of education, but minimum or "stale" experience, especially if they live a half hour or more from the jobs. *sigh*

Sometimes, its good to leave things out if it isn't applicable to the job you are seeking. e.g. I do not list my restaurant kitchen experience when I was in grad school for engineering jobs 30 years later.

It's when you said you accomplished something or have a degree but you don't. This, is a significant problem. But to leave things off especially when it isn't applicable to the job on hand, that should not be a problem.

Being stale or being perceived as being stale should be turned into a positive: "I have been engaged in other related activities to keep me sharp". Hopefully, this is true. Turning a perceived negative to a positive goes a long way.

Hope this helps.

[Crankin]

When I began my job search for my new career, last spring, I went to the university career services and had them check my resume. I am 57 and obviously, I didn't want anyone to know this. I simply left off the year I got my BA and my first MA and I only listed my experience since 1992. It looked like I had been a stay at home mom, who was maybe in her forties. I was very specific about my clinical experience in my 2 years of internship and semi specific about my last 2 teaching jobs. I did include, under "other experience," at the end, my experience as a group exercise instructor and as a ride leader.

The head of career services (who was about my age) told me it's not even so much how you look, but more the "energy" you give off when you meet an interviewer or someone reads your resume. She told me that I would have no issue in my field, as I gave off "active" energy and including my athletic stuff gave them a clue I was active, but also engaged in self care. I found a career that actually values age and experience; at my last internship, we had 70 year old therapists, as well as people right out of grad school, who were 25. Frankly, it doesn't hurt that I don't look my age, but I sure don't look 30. There are also a lot of people in my field who are techno phobes; while I am no tech wiz, it's clear I know how to use email!

[shootingstar]

told me it's not even so much how you look, but more the "energy" you give off when you meet an interviewer or someone reads your resume

Most certainly evidence, of that "energy" becomes more important as one advances through the years. But I would add, evidence of flexible yet disciplined creativity/innovation, that has a clear goal/purpose/resolved a significant business problem/issue, is helpful also...for an applicant at mid-life and beyond.

What I did struggle with, was minimizing some really interesting jobs I've had, because some were just too far back in history.

However it's matter of somehow figuring out /hoping one is perceived as a good cultural fit with the organization and that is tough to know at times.

I recently was chatting with my manager (she's just a few years older than I) who was worried about someone applying for yet another job from another division, she was going to have filled officially by someone in our group. The person wishing to migrate to our group, has all the pre-eminent qualities for the job, but may not necessarily be a good team fit where some folks in our group, have strong personalities.

In your line of work, some life experiences might matter to some clients, Crankin.

[shootingstar]

Shootingstar,

I'm confused as to whether your original post was meant to be cautionary or funny, or for some other purpose.

If you meant it as a bunch of cautionary tales, well -- I hope you think better of your fellow TE'ers.

If you meant to put those anecdotes up for a laugh, well -- my reaction was to think that it's tragic that these people don't have better support, honesty, advice and couseling from their peers and mentors as they try to find a place for themselves in the world of work.

These days all you need to be screened out by HR is to be unemployed for a period of time. Doesn't matter how good your credentials and experience are.

It seems to me, that several of my recent posts are being misinterpreted(?).

I was quoting from a news article that someone else wrote...which was cautionary. Of course, the journalist wrote in an eye-catching way to grab the reader.

What did I do wrong now?

As for personal experiences/stories from the hiring side, yes, cautionary in a sad-funny way. Also to illustrate how unexpected /unpredictable people can be ..when they really need something.

I've been there, NBYNW...unemployed for 18 months.
Yes, employers get curious if one is merely unemployed at mid-life.

Elsewhere a few months ago, I mentioned that the Canadian federal govn't does offer in the major cities some free support programs which are quite helpful and run over a period of several hrs. per wk. for several wks.

The counsellors are terrific and they themselves, have done some major career-changing moves.
I don't know what the U.S. offers. No doubt it may differ per state/region.


TSPoet, true it depends who is assessing the candidate and timing. The division where I work now, over 4 months was spent trying to find a geospatial technician that met our division's needs and..team fit. They did find a good person who never applied in the first round of recruitment.

It is true, being there at a good time and place does coalesce at times in a small miracle, into a good hire ..that makes everyone satisfied.

The most surprising thing I have found, is that I have met people in the present organization like myself, who had established careers elsewhere for 15-25 yrs., but decided to switch to govn't and got hired. There ARE places that value strong experience in different types of organizations and industries. They just don't want recent graduates, they also need the stability of older workers who won't suddenly leave for career climbing purposes, etc.

[NbyNW]

It seems to me, that several of my recent posts are being misinterpreted(?).

I was quoting from a news article that someone else wrote...which was cautionary. Of course, the journalist wrote in an eye-catching way to grab the reader.

What did I do wrong now?

I know from having met you that you are person with good intentions, but merely quoting an article and then listing a few of your own experiences in this case falls short of providing the context which indicates why you are starting a discussion on this topic. Usually I've seen you end your introductory posts with some kind of personal observation or a question for the forum, but not this time. So it leaves one to wonder.

I've been there, NBYNW...unemployed for 18 months.
Yes, employers get curious if one is merely unemployed at mid-life.

I can see this logic in "normal" times, but it makes no sense to hold it over now. This is the worst economy in decades. IMO employers are really limiting their options by automatically not considering the long-term unemployed when they are looking to fill a role. Sure there may be some oddballs out there, but I think it's cruel to laugh at them so why even bring it up. At the same time, there are a lot of good people who have been out of work for a very long time, and it's a stupid reason not to give someone a second look.

[shootingstar]

Sorry NBYNW, it feels as if I'm a target of misplaced anger /frustration...when I've been there in your shoes, not just once...but 3 times in life.

I'm not the right person to be angry at. Really I'm not.

After all, I had to find work after university, then again after moving to Vancouver from Toronto.

I've tried to give some tips in this thread..passed to me from experts.

Hope you find something soon/or maybe you have already.

[NbyNW]

Shootingstar, I'm not angry at you but will admit to feeling a bit punchy about the situation in general.

I think the tips you shared from your career counselor were great. The ones from the Globe and Mail seemed to be more for shock value, and not so helpful.

What I really want to know is how to overcome this bias against the long-term unemployed. I know there are people who are in far more dire straits than I am, and it's heartbreaking to think of its long-term effects on society in general.

Zoom-zoom, thanks for sharing your story. I've started to think about how to widen my net and you offer a lot of good food for thought. I've always worried even in good times how difficult it is to return to work after taking time off for children, and I can only imagine how things are compounded in this environment.

[goldfinch]

We have a society that tends to blame individuals for things that are systematic problems. It wears on me. I know several people in their 50s who were laid off more than two years ago and have not found work. I don't know how they ever will get back in the work force. Age discrimination based on erroneous beliefs about older workers. The continuing recession. Problems with loss of skills when you are out of work for too long. Not good times for far too many. And now it is hard to get job development programs going because our government is obsessed with deficits rather than obsessed with lack of jobs. My sister and her ex ended up moving back in together just because her ex could not find work.