WSD vs Men's frames

[Catrin]

I think much of this is marketing, but fit is paramount. Proportionally speaking I've long legs, and several reasons why I need an upright riding position + quite short reach. My one WSD bike was sold at a loss because it was too big - if Trek made the 7.6 FX in a smaller size would that have happened? Unsure, but since the bike was too big it is difficult to determine if the problem was from the design or the bike just being too large for me.

If it weren't for my short reach I would ride a 52 cm frame, but for fit reasons I ride a 46-48 cm frame. That being said, my two non-custom bikes are unisex, not WSD at all (LHT and Jamis Dakar). I think the fit will still need dialed in on the Jamis, but I need to get more comfortable on the trails before we figure that out...

The point is to try everything out there, and find what fits the best. If an LBS won't show you non-WSD frames, then take your money somewhere else. In the end you might well need WSD, but you need to try all of your options.

[ehirsch83]

ONE IMPORTANT thing that many of you are forgetting- you are all talking about the top tube difference-but most women's specific design have a taller HEADTUBE! so it will be a little more upright, not as aggressive- but also bring everything in closer.

[WindingRoad]

It all depends on your body. A marketing strategy, probably, but the truth is the WSD bikes work really nice for some women. But they also work really great on some guys too, lol. I sold a WSD bike to a very leggy and rather short man last week and though he was not crazy about the paint job he was smart enough to realize he could 'guy' it up a bit and also have the comfort factor too. It's kinda funny now since us girls are usually 'girling' our boring male oriented paint jobs up to make them more 'ours'. At our shop we go by Serotta's proportion fitting system and it will then pull up a whole list of bikes, sizes, manufacturers that have the best lengths and combos of tube to best fit that person. I won't say its a perfect system b/c everyone has different mobilities too.

All that aside I'm a girl and I ride a WSD. I got lucky and found a bike that worked really awesome for me. I did get a custom fitting done on it too where me and my fitter tweaked some things. See not perfect though! Fittings are just so important.

[Aggie_Ama]

From my experience, Trek and Cannondale "shrink it and pink it". They put shorter reach shifters, narrower bars, usually shorter cranks and a women's saddle then say it is WSD. Specialized uses a different geometry. I cannot ride Specialized women's mountain bikes even though I am the "typical" WSD build. I like a longer top tube on my mountain bike and yes the WSD is also much more upright which I didn't like. My Specialized mountain bike is my first unisex bike.

So yes, some people it is marketing BS. Some companies actually put thought, resources and engineering into a different geometry but some men should ride the WSD geometry.

I got totally duped when I bought my Cannondale thinking it was a different geometry, then when I found all the aches and pains I was having I looked at a geometry chart and realized I hadn't done my homework and was paying the price with an ill fitting bike. On a road bike I like a shorter top tube for comfort I don't like aggressive geometry road bikes, my plan is to sell my Cannondale at some point (when I can afford a replacement) and will likely go Specialized WSD.

If you like a Trek and hate the women's scheme get the "unisex" and you can swap the bars, shifters and saddle then you're pretty much at WSD.

[pll]

What is interesting in this discussion is that we often forget that fit on the bike is also affected by individual flexibility and core strength. If there is really little variation in anthropometric measurements between men and women (as the Cervelo guys argue, but I've read this elsewhere, too), then we might be responding more to the flexibility/core strength issue. I certainly can tell the difference in my riding when I am in better shape relative to when I am not.

[OakLeaf]

Do you have a link to the anthropometric data?

I've been reading that women generally have shorter arms and torsos than men since WAY before there was such a thing as WSD frames. So I'm skeptical that that concept is a marketing scam.

As far as the other, it's just one more thing you can't generalize - whether it's environmental friendliness, fair trade, or WSD. Unless a term is regulated, some companies are going to claim it and really do it, and other companies are just going to claim it.

[KnottedYet]

There's sizing, and there's fitting.

Sizing and choosing a frame would be like looking at how big a frame, what geometry, what material. Like going to a bridal shop and picking out the size, style, and fabric of a wedding dress.

Then there's fitting the saddle and bar types, positions, tilts, crank arms, pedals, etc. Like having that wedding dress tailored so it fits you perfectly.

I've seen women with good frame sizes, and very bad fits. I've seen women with the absolute wrong frame size and huge efforts to make it fit. If I have a woman in for a fit and I see she's on an expensive frame that is too small with expensive add-ons to make it fit, I can almost guess which shop stiffed her for it. If I see a woman with a great frame size but slightly odd fit (more like the way a typical man would be fit) I can pretty much guess which shop set her up. Mind you, I only see the people with pain and injury from their bikes, so what I see is very biased.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a bike fit if you can swing it.

Grab a friend and a copy of Andy Pruitt's book, or fit info from Youtube or Sheldon, or even just look up KOPS and start there. Even if you suspect the frame geometry isn't the best for you, you might be able to tweak your bike enough to fit, whether WSD or not. And if getting a new bike, ask your shop if they do fittings for people who purchase from them. Some will fit you first for a fee, then apply that fee to the purchase price of the bike. A good fitting will take an hour at least, and will cost some money in one way or another.

[pll]

Do you have a link to the anthropometric data?

I actually wish I had some good references. I have not been able to find anything in journals one could consider reputable (say, by at least having their abstracts in the ISI Web of Science). Yet, Cervelo makes the claim and I cannot remember the other place that I saw it. I wonder if those claims are based on the data of sponsored teams. Perhaps we should do our own poll data collection.

[Velocivixen]

Okay, so I have A question. I have all my measurements and now would like some reputable online bike geometry calculators to play with. I found one that only wanted my sex, height and leg length. I'm 5'6" with 32.5" leg length (I think that's 83 cm), a 57.5 cm torso and 56 cm arms. This particular calculator said I needed a 56 frame. It didn't even ask about my torso or arms.
I have found the leMond calculator. Any other calculators I should know?

[ny biker]

From my experience, Trek and Cannondale "shrink it and pink it". They put shorter reach shifters, narrower bars, usually shorter cranks and a women's saddle then say it is WSD. Specialized uses a different geometry. I cannot ride Specialized women's mountain bikes even though I am the "typical" WSD build. I like a longer top tube on my mountain bike and yes the WSD is also much more upright which I didn't like. My Specialized mountain bike is my first unisex bike.

So yes, some people it is marketing BS. Some companies actually put thought, resources and engineering into a different geometry but some men should ride the WSD geometry.

I got totally duped when I bought my Cannondale thinking it was a different geometry, then when I found all the aches and pains I was having I looked at a geometry chart and realized I hadn't done my homework and was paying the price with an ill fitting bike. On a road bike I like a shorter top tube for comfort I don't like aggressive geometry road bikes, my plan is to sell my Cannondale at some point (when I can afford a replacement) and will likely go Specialized WSD.

If you like a Trek and hate the women's scheme get the "unisex" and you can swap the bars, shifters and saddle then you're pretty much at WSD.

My Trek WSD bike is gray with white and black trim. Quite dull, actually.

[OakLeaf]

I don't remember the specs and they're not online any more, but I do remember that the men's version of my Synapse - which is the same as yours - had at least a 1.5 cm longer top tube in the same model year.

Now, the seat tube angle and the setback it requires might obviate the shorter top tube. But the frames weren't identical, I remember that for sure, because I spent a good amount of time poring over the specs. There wasn't much difference at all between the Spec' Ruby that I'd test ridden and knew would fit, vs. the C'dale Synapse Feminine that I didn't get a chance to test ride but bought anyway.

[tulip]

Okay, so I have A question. I have all my measurements and now would like some reputable online bike geometry calculators to play with. I found one that only wanted my sex, height and leg length. I'm 5'6" with 32.5" leg length (I think that's 83 cm), a 57.5 cm torso and 56 cm arms. This particular calculator said I needed a 56 frame. It didn't even ask about my torso or arms.
I have found the leMond calculator. Any other calculators I should know?

Really, forget the online calculators and go to a person who has lots of experience in bike fitting. I would find it extremely surprising if you actually fit on a 56cm bike.

[Marquise]

Velocivixen - wrenchscience.com has a fit calculator that walks you through a number of measurements. May be no substitute for a real fitting but can be an interesting exercise.

[Koronin]

I actually prefer the leaned over position of a road bike to a mountain bike. I have a fairly new mountain bike. Bought last year from my old LBS in Ohio while up there visiting. That store is great and they fit me to it to make sure everything was good. Of course we had to take the wheels off to get it home. LOL. I also bought my road bike (used men's 47cm Trek 2000) last summer. Although it's not a perfect fit (have made some changed thanks to our old LBS in Charlotte) that has made it fit much better, I'm more comfortable on it and it's almost exclusively due to the more leaned over position. We've actually made a couple of changes to get me more stretched out on the mountain bike which has helped.

[Owlie]

From my experience, Trek and Cannondale "shrink it and pink it". They put shorter reach shifters, narrower bars, usually shorter cranks and a women's saddle then say it is WSD. Specialized uses a different geometry. I cannot ride Specialized women's mountain bikes even though I am the "typical" WSD build. I like a longer top tube on my mountain bike and yes the WSD is also much more upright which I didn't like. My Specialized mountain bike is my first unisex bike.

So yes, some people it is marketing BS. Some companies actually put thought, resources and engineering into a different geometry but some men should ride the WSD geometry.

I got totally duped when I bought my Cannondale thinking it was a different geometry, then when I found all the aches and pains I was having I looked at a geometry chart and realized I hadn't done my homework and was paying the price with an ill fitting bike. On a road bike I like a shorter top tube for comfort I don't like aggressive geometry road bikes, my plan is to sell my Cannondale at some point (when I can afford a replacement) and will likely go Specialized WSD.

If you like a Trek and hate the women's scheme get the "unisex" and you can swap the bars, shifters and saddle then you're pretty much at WSD.

There's some difference between the unisex Madone and the Madone WSD models I was looking at, to the point where I'd need different sizes. (But they're not huge differences, and I'm a long-legged freak ) Cannondale and Giant seem to have minimal differences between the unisex and women's, at least, for the last couple of years. It's like half a centimeter of top tube length and they call it good. Either way, I can't afford the componentry swap, so unless my only option in that regard a pink bike (sorry, westtexas!), I'm going for the WSD.
I do like the Specialized WSD, though.