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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    507
    In NZ accident costs (medical treatment and rehab) is covered by the government. Car owners pay a levy because car accidents are so common. Cyclists don't.

    I think that if the country pays your medical costs rather than you having to pay medical insurance or out of your own pocket, then the governemnt DOES have a right to mandate safety things, like wearing a seat belt, or wearing a cycle helmet. Yes, it won't stop an accident but at least hopefully the cost of putting you back together is reduced.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourne Oz
    Posts
    174
    I'm a little stunned at the risk perception here. We have suggestions of denying medical care to unhelmeted cyclists (but not the bigger killer of heart disease or the more dangerous behaviour of walking) and laying guilt trips on cyclists for ER staff (but not demonising people without smoke alarms who distress firies). Is the bike hate so strong at TE?

    I don't recall anyone suggesting bike helmets be outlawed (I thought they are optional in most of the US). It seems to be an attempt to judge others for their risk decisions. And let's not even pretend that helmets are designed to save us from being run down by inattentive or drunk drivers; they're not.

    I think it's really unfair to the cyclists here to be perpetuating the myth that cycling is a dangerous activity. Here's a safety quiz (international data) just in case anyone would actually like to find out more. And in case you don't, it notes (among other things) that the total number of head injury fatalities in the US is around 75,000 per year, while cycling fatalities from ALL injuries is only about 800. So we need tens of thousands of cyclists a year to make sure 'your helmet saves your life' (then prove it) to even get close. The helmet manufacturers would be delighted to help of course.

    Anecdotes are powerful and that is why advertisers use them, but we should also seek facts in arriving at a realistic perception of risk. Then go for a ride.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Blessed to be all over the place!
    Posts
    3,433
    Gary Busey! Advocated no helmet motorcycle laws...had a wreck, hit his head.

    Was strange before...is even stranger now

    I rest my case!
    If you don't grow where you're planted, you'll never BLOOM - Will Rogers

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    324
    Anecdotes, research data seem to support both sides. Again, I see wearing or not wearing a helmet simply a matter of choice, and neither side should have to justify their choice.

    I choose to because I feel a bit more insurance - remember, I have head-first crashed 3 times (both at speed and at no speed). Things happen fast, I ride sort of fast and the roads can be hazardous. Note, I have also fallen without moving, so it is not just a speed thing.

    I know some hate seat belts, I have worn a belt for so long it feels too weird not too. What's funny? I often buckle up to move the car from the driveway to the curb, just because it feels too odd not too, not because I'm safer.

    So, if you wear one, cool, if you don't, cool, if you do sometimes but not others, that's okay too. I do support kids wearing one, because they do not have the reaction skills should something happen (I'm sure some do, but in general, likely not).

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    '89 Bridgestone Radac Dura-Ace | Specialized Ruby, 143
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,841
    I occasionally forget my helmet - I always go back and get it when I realize.

    If I wasn't a believer in helmets, I definitely am after biking with TxDoc last week... It was pouring rain, we were riding skinny road slicks (700x23) on Baltimore roads with a ton of potholes and railroad tracks.

    I'm not entirely certain how I fell, I know, we were riding pretty slowly because it was raining and we were going over some railroad tracks that diagonally cut across the road and there was a ton of potholes - something caught my front wheel and I started to fall, but I managed to recover from that fall, but something caught my front wheel and skidded it out the other way... Suddenly I was on the ground (flash of white light when my head hit)...

    So I smashed my helmet up and got 2 small scratches on my ankle (I still don't get how I fell like that)... but I didn't even have a headache afterwards, despite the dents in the outside of the helmet and the foam being broken on the inside. I said something like "at least I don't road rash" and TxDoc said something like "most people would prefer that to hitting their head" and looked at me like I was nuts.

    I'm not sure the argument that kids have slower reaction times matters - because most of the time when I've fallen, I've had no time to react more quickly... and my reaction time has little to do with whether or not a car hits me often.

    I almost hit a cyclist today and was really annoyed. He had no helmet on and headphones on. It was going through a city center with 2 lanes in either direction. He was in the outside lane, I was in the inside one... andthe light changed and we all stopped... He decided to dash in front of me, cutting me off and then got into the inner lane of the opposite lanes of traffic (despite cars coming towards him in that direction)... Where he rode up to the front of the line of traffic and jumped back into the front of the cars waiting at the red light...

    It wasn't real smart of him.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Newport, RI
    Posts
    3,821
    Quote Originally Posted by Cataboo View Post

    So I smashed my helmet up and got 2 small scratches on my ankle (I still don't get how I fell like that)...
    .
    After my last crash, I had a bruise on my ankle in a weird place. I finally figured out it was from the impact with my pedal. Could it be that?

    Glad you weren't hurt! Railroad tracks are evil.
    '02 Eddy Merckx Fuga, Selle An Atomica
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    Slacker on wheels.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Uncanny Valley
    Posts
    14,498
    I disagree that as a dedicated helmet-wearer, I overestimate the risk.

    I balance the risk against the burden, is all. That's the reason that even after my concussion on a bici, I was (for a while) willing to ride a moto without a helmet.

    Because of the weight distribution between rider and vehicle (and possibly other factors like wheel/tire size), even "minor" bicycle crashes tend to throw you violently onto your head. That's not the case for falls when motorcycling, driving a car, or walking. Also, the burden of a bici helmet is minuscule in terms of weight, comfort, cost, and sensory restriction. The burden is so small that it's worth it to prevent even a remote risk of a great harm.

    Someone made a snark about wearing helmets in cars... most states have already done that balancing test and decided that the burden of sensory restriction far outweighs the potential gains, and made it illegal to wear a helmet while driving a car on public roads. Remember that on a two-wheeler, you don't have the issue of pillars that already restrict your vision enormously ... and your hearing is already restricted by wind noise (or by earplugs that you wear to protect against wind noise, even if they're illegal too ) ... so the balance comes out differently. Anyway, I'm not sure where that statistic came from - AFAIK, head injuries are pretty rare among people wearing seatbelts in cars.
    Last edited by OakLeaf; 04-28-2011 at 05:54 AM.
    Speed comes from what you put behind you. - Judi Ketteler

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    3,853
    I wish people could simply choose what is best for themselves and their families, and allow others to do the same.

    Electra Townie 7D

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    2,841
    Quote Originally Posted by redrhodie View Post
    After my last crash, I had a bruise on my ankle in a weird place. I finally figured out it was from the impact with my pedal. Could it be that?

    Glad you weren't hurt! Railroad tracks are evil.
    No, it was my outer ankle. But not on the poky out bit, on the slope coming up from it. Maybe it hit one of the potholes or bumps in the road. It's just weird that I didn't bruise or scrap anything else up on my legs.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    I'm the only one allowed to whine
    Posts
    10,557
    As a medical professional, I am begging you not to wear helmets.

    It costs millions of dollars to rehab survivors of bike/car (or bike/gravity) accidents.

    Death is cheaper.

    Please don't wear helmets. Brain death has legal status. Once you are brain dead, but your body continues to pump along in vain, your organs are ripe for the plucking. We are in dire need of juicy ripe organs for transplants.

    You are more valuable to me dead than alive.

    So don't wear those helmets, and be sure to buy your health insurance from private companies that have strong "death panels."

    Your nice healthy cyclist liver can save the life of an unrepentant drug abuser! Your powerful heart can save the life of an obese welfare beneficiary! Your clear lenses can return sight to a smoker!

    C'mon, kids, do your part to keep the medical system running! Die at the most opportune moment for the most people!

    (for those of you who do not live in the U.S. - this is bitter sarcasm based on an insider's view of the morally bankrupt but profitable U.S. medical system)
    "If Americans want to live the American Dream, they should go to Denmark." - Richard Wilkinson

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Traveling Nomad
    Posts
    6,763
    Ok, here's my dilemma. I am an avid helmet wearer, never go without one. However, in Belize, NO ONE wears helmets. I mean NO ONE. Many of the locals don't have a lot of money, and a bike is their only means of transportation. People ride one-speed beach cruisers with bare feet, sandals, or maybe sneakers, no clipless pedals or bike shoes. Everyone rides in normal clothing, not bike shorts/jerseys. Most roads are unpaved (packed sand), and a lot of rides are on the beach, but there are a few paved roads which are driven mostly by golf carts, but there are taxis and a few small trucks on the roads as well as many bikes, pedestrians, etc..

    When we are in Belize, do I wear a helmet and thus immediately put a label on myself of "different", "outsider", "ex-pat", "gringo", and, quite possibly "rich"; or do I do ride sans helmet in order to fit in and live as the locals and not appear ostentatious? For safety purposes, a helmet is obviously the way to go; but there are cultural issues at play that are very different from those where I live now.

    This is something I've really been struggling with. So far, on our trips to Belize, we have rented bikes and have not worn helmets. We only took carry-on luggage and didn't even have space for them, and bike rental places don't offer them. But what about when we live there?

    I honestly have not made up my mind about this. What would you do?
    Emily

    2011 Jamis Dakar XC "Toto" - Selle Italia Ldy Gel Flow
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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Maui, HI
    Posts
    13
    I feel naked if I don't wear a helmet when biking. It just feels wrong. I always wear it.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    1,942
    Quote Originally Posted by oz rider View Post
    I'm a little stunned at the risk perception here.
    Anecdotes are powerful and that is why advertisers use them, but we should also seek facts in arriving at a realistic perception of risk. Then go for a ride.
    My realistic perception of risk is based on a $140K medical bill from my last helmeted crash. Thank god I had health insurance. Though I guess if I hadn't been wearing a helmet, a funeral would've been cheaper than the medical bill, right?

    I think helmets are a lot like insurance - they don't seem necessary until something catastrophic happens, and then you wish you had it. I wouldn't build a house in New Orleans without flood insurance, and I won't ride on roads or trails without a helmet. And while people think taking risks without insurance only affects them, in reality it can have an impact on the entire community.

    "I never met a donut I didn't like" - Dave Wiens

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Western Canada-prairies, mountain & ocean
    Posts
    6,984
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...rticle1984075/

    Today's national newspaper in Canada interviewed a physician Charles Tator at a large acute care hospital in Toronto. Tator headed up for many years I think the critical care emergency unit. His speciality for last few decades is traumatic injuries, specifically spinal cord and head injuries.

    Those who posed questions to him, were cyclists and non-cyclists across a broad spectrum of opinions on helmet use.

    I worked at a hospital for spinal cord injured adults that was down the street from this acute care hospital. Our hospital received the permanently paralyzed patients after they underwent the critical/emergency care for rehabilitation at our hospital. At the time, I was there, we did have some patients that got press coverage because of their life-altering disability. We had some patients who became paraplegics or quadriplegics due to gun shot wound (spinal cord), football, hockey, falling from a ladder, roof, etc. One of the patients was Canada's Commonwealth Games silver medallist cyclist, Jocelyn Lovell. He was hit by a dump truck while on bike. Obviously his injuries were not on the head...but elsewhere which left him wheelchair bound for life.

    Perhaps this is why even though I am not even a health care professional (I worked in the medical library there), I was left with a powerful impression where I valued my personal mobility (and life) even more. That plus being hit by a car as pedestrian when I was a teen.

    Like some here, I consider a helmet a form of insurance and weighing personal risk to me is easy. There also have been sufficient personal anecdotes from TE members here who have been injured or who have direct health care/patient care work with patients with head injuries.

    I'm not sure why people insist on only wearing a helmet, ---if there is a huge glut of head injury statitstics for cyclists that never wore helmets.

    But then, it is your life and your risk assessment.
    Last edited by shootingstar; 04-28-2011 at 10:52 AM.
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