Liveable communities take away my rights

[Mr. Bloom]

I agree with PamNY. There is a philosophy out there that proposes that everything bike/ped oriented is good for business. I think that may be true in certain situations, but I don't think it's proven to be universal.

ETA: withm, I don't think that's a fair assumption. Mom and Pops in my town tend to be specialty oriented and not providing the basic staples of life in a quantity or variety necessary to support the shopping needs of a family. I'm happily going to ride my bike to Kroger and WalMart

Overall, I bristle at arguments in support of cycling being disguised ways of supporting the anti-big box/anti wal-mart debate. Whole Foods and Trader Joes are just another form of big box...they're just perceived differently...

[PamNY]

Shootingstar, show him what the EU plans. Wonder what he will think?

[Trek420]

Shootingstar, show him what the EU plans. Wonder what he will think?

Surprisingly long list of communities already doing the car-free thang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_car-free_places

I suppose that if a family saved $7,000/year by going car-light/free, than much of that $7,000 might be spent in local mom & pop stores that were accessible by bicycle.

They could spend it at Walmart for all I know. It's a $7k raise. Do what with it what you will

A coworker just bought a house in Tracy, a tough, crowded, hour-long commute from our mutual office. She felt she could not afford a home closer. You kidding? In this market? Anywho add the miles, wear tear on the car, time ... it's almost like buying another house.

I think most people whether they drive or bike would like to do at least some errands by foot or on a bike. Most people want liveable communities even if they drive often.

[shootingstar]

Thanks for the link, Pam. Gives some ideas...not just for the strange yahoos, but for other related cycling stuff.

As for cyclists as customers for economic viability. For specialized stores, we have to be abit realistic about this: if the retailer sells small kind of products, then it's not the sort of thing tons of cars are lining up all the time unless it's a bakery or some essential, perishable thing that one visits weekly. I mean shoe store, jewellery store...aren't the type of stores that people buy from several times per month. So there are times, that I think some retailers are just struggling anyway because: they haven't refreshened their marketing strategy, their products are specialized, etc.

For big box stores and big shopping malls, well now about some bike racks. I could never forget the time, we biked up to bike store I think it was in Seattle or was it Portland (?) about 2 yrs. It was at a large shopping mall: No bike racks. So we wheeled in our bikes into the store. I remember this because I did buy 1-2 things from the bike store.

But there were other types of stores for shopping at that mall. Hardly encouraging cyclists to shop even though we will shop at big box stores when we need the merchandise/pricing.

This is an experience I've had quite often at shopping malls..with big chain grocery / other big box stores. Not all, but enough.

[marni]

and then there is the obvious point that I as a homeowner with a working husband with whom I share a car, pay exactly the same homeowners fees (which pay for local roads),police and fire support, taxes, both state and federal (of which a portion pays for roads and infrastructure) and gasoline taxes for the one car we do use, which also help pay for roads and infrastructure.

This point seems to just sail over the heads of those who object to me sharing the road. I don't pay any less homeowner fees,state and federal taxes for using one less car than other people, although I do pay less gasoline tax. On the other hand I will probably last longer than most of them at least from a healthy life style point of view.

[PamNY]

The retailer complaints in Manhattan tend to be very specific to the individual stores' circumstances. In most cases, their customers don't arrive by private car, but some are affected by bike lanes nonetheless.

A deli does a lot of business with taxi drivers who stop quickly for a cup of coffee (and probably double-park). Some delis cater to taxi drivers by letting them use the rest room (a huge issue for taxi drivers). With a bike lane, that very stable chunk of deli business is instantly gone.

One bike lane narrowed a street so much that tour buses supposedly avoided the area. Restaurants and souvenir shops that cater to tourists claim to be hurt (which seems plausible to me).

Delivery trucks (which nearly always park illegally, but at least they can park) are another issue when parking space is lost.

The equation in Manhattan is a bit different because bikes don't mean "one less car" -- they mean one less person on the subway, which doesn't matter very much. I don't know how relevant our bike lane battles are in other places.

None of this is an argument against bike lanes -- just a bit of reality.

If you're interested, this is a story about one very controversial bike lane (the one that discouraged tour buses).

[zoom-zoom]

On the other hand I will probably last longer than most of them at least from a healthy life style point of view.

I always want to point out to them that I am helping keep med. ins. premiums lower...then I want to ask what their blood-work, BP, and resting pulse looks like and if they smoke.

[crazycanuck]

I just found the item i wanted to suggest.

Towards an eco-city:calming the traffic. David Engwicht http://www.angusrobertson.com.au/boo...affic/4257287/

http://www.creative-communities.com/

[badger]

I'm probably not going to win any popularity contests by saying this, but I don't support the recent development of bike lanes in Vancouver. I believe it was poorly planned, and does not benefit many people. It may encourage some people to commute by bike, but only for those who work in that particular area. None of the funding went into bettering or expanding beyond that downtown core.

And might I also say that it does not make commuting downtown any better, as it only goes N/S E/W in two respective lanes, it won't help if you need to go to another street. Getting back onto the bike lanes are sometimes dangerous, if not impossible. Because a lot of downtown traffic is still one-way, unless you want to go the wrong way risking a ticket, you have to go on streets that doesn't even have a bike lane. You're still not any safer than you were before.

They spent over $25million to build just TWO bike lanes. They could have easily spent that money to build better infrastructures that benefits everyone in the city, not just a tiny fraction.

I'm in support of bettering infrastructure that everyone can benefit (not just a few people); this one was poorly planned and ill-spent.

I think I went off a tangent a bit, but I wanted to hi-light that not all bike lanes are created equal.

[shootingstar]

No, not bike lanes are created equal. The 2 Vancouver separated bike lanes, of which parts are show in this 2011 Vancouver video clip below, run through the thickest part of Vancouver downtown traffic. Not the entire length of the 2 routes, but parts. As one can see, in the video, the city actually used some low cost methods.

Cost of construction for roads, usually is manpower, redirect traffic, etc.....a blend of unionized and probably contract folks. I guess, I'm saying this now after having worked closely with documents on detailed contracts, cost modelling, etc. on a major road and bridge construction project @ $800 million out in the suburbs for 3-yr. long project.

It's just a start, badger. Cycling infrastructure isn't built after there is a whole pileup of cyclists overcrowded for several years. It's before. Just like the Golden Ears Bridge which is Vancouver's first toll bridge road, it is seriously undertutilized, by thousands of dollars annually. Part of it is car drivers take time to change their driving routes and suburbs will get built up with more local residents.

Similarily for cycling, if there is both public education, promotion and reasonable cycling infrastructure, people will use it. Like bike rack use on buses, they will get used once people know how to use the racks. That's why Vancovuer is so far ahead compared to Toronto where the latter just got their first set of racks only in past few years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvBJGBxvuW0

[badger]

I'm not saying people don't use them, it's not applicable to many people other than those who work downtown. And even within downtown, unless your office is along one of those bike lanes, you still struggle with safe commuting.

[shootingstar]

Maybe useful to know that in the neighbourhoods of Kitslano which borders downtown there is already 10% of folks commuting by bike. In that area there are some on road bike lanes and Shaugnessy, etc. Anyway many of the roads aren't as heavy with traffic. I rode those areas nearly daily when I was unemployed, so I can say safely what it was like at different times of the working day/week/weekend. They are beautiful areas to ride through at any time...except for the crowded times of parents dropping off kids at school.

30 km. long Central Valley Greenway, which was heavily funded by TransLink and some border municipalities of Burnaby and New Westminister, take folks to and from downtown to those outlying areas quite safely ..and they can use the separated bike lane on Dunsmuir St. (or go down Ontario St. etc.). Lots of options that are safer outside of downtown area.

The $$ was from City of Vancouver budget, not intended for the border municipalities . Hence whatever infrastructure was to be within City of Vancouver boundaries. It's taxpayers' money.

Other suburban municipalities, have to pony up money, which they slowly are in their own way each year for past 5 years for infrastructure in their own jurisdictions. In my humble opinion, it's very much those outlying municipalities we need to continously link up Vancouver's cycling infrastructure to theirs..but theirs is "thinner" and not as well-developed.

City of Surrey struggles immensely since it has awful roads in terms of higher speed, wider roads (which contributes to speeding), is more spread out, and lack of many regular cyclists. I've cycled through that area only a few times with last time on our own self-guided touring ride from Washington after we crossed the U.S. border to return home. It's never an uplifting experience cycling-wise through Surrey, but then I haven't explored routes enough yet.

By the way, the hotel that protested publicly huge and loud against the Hornby bike lane...one of their managers is an avid bike commuter and radonneur. He parks his bike in the hotel parking area somewhere. He went on the Grand Fondo ride from Vancouver to Whistler last fall which received enormous publicity. I mean talk about hypocrisy..

[PamNY]

By the way, the hotel that protested publicly huge and loud against the Hornby bike lane...one of their managers is an avid bike commuter and radonneur. He parks his bike in the hotel parking area somewhere. He went on the Grand Fondo ride from Vancouver to Whistler last fall which received enormous publicity. I mean talk about hypocrisy..

Do you know specifically what the hotel's objections were?

I hear of this over and over with regard to bike lanes --"I'm a cyclist, but..." Regarding one of the controversial bike lanes I referenced in my earlier post, I was shocked to discover my city councilmember was against it. But the more I learned about it, the more I could understand the objections.

[badger]

Do you know specifically what the hotel's objections were?

I hear of this over and over with regard to bike lanes --"I'm a cyclist, but..." Regarding one of the controversial bike lanes I referenced in my earlier post, I was shocked to discover my city councilmember was against it. But the more I learned about it, the more I could understand the objections.

I'm one of those who said "I'm a cyclist, but..." when people asked me what I thought of this project. I told them it's stupid to be speding so much money on a project that only limited people will benefit when public programs are being cut. The mayor's out of touch with reality, and this project was very political.

I wouldn't say the hotel manager is a hypocrite. Just because he rides a bicycle doesn't mean he'll be supporting an ill-conceived concept. The bike lane affects his business. Most people who go to hotels are from out of town and are either driving themselves or are being driven to by a taxi. By making them go through a maze to access them isn't good for business. I doubt he's saying he's against encouraging others to cycle.

This is just an argument about a very specific, and localized issue. I do think most people support having better infrastructure.

[Koronin]

badger, that sounds like the one I menetioned in a beach/tourist down. Very ill concieved. What makes that one so bad is that you have tons of out of towners all summer who will be both driving and riding rented bikes and do not know the area at all. Which is why many people wanted the bike lane between the parking spots and the sidewalk. Not between the road and the parking spots.