growing up.. rambling

[Crankin]

Ah, I didn't respond to that comment, originally, but while I do see a lot of helicopter parenting, not everyone is like that. My kids were born in 82 and 85 and are totally on their own. Each in their own way, but on their own. I find that parents, in general, are increasingly afraid of letting their kids do anything that smacks of independence.

[PamNY]

I find that parents, in general, are increasingly afraid of letting their kids do anything that smacks of independence.

I hear people say that, but I don't understand it. Young people today seem much more independent than people my age were. Women in particular weren't supposed to be very independent at all.

[badger]

I'm in the "X" generation, the first generation to NOT do as well or better than our parents' generation. Certainly not a cop-out or a generalization, but I think there's a bit of apathy amongst my peers who have university degrees and jobs but are not able to afford a house thanks to astronomical housing prices.

I know so many young people (I'm including those up to about 35) who still live at home, and parents welcome it. I remember I couldn't WAIT to leave home, and I did when I was 20.

[Irulan]

I hear people say that, but I don't understand it. Young people today seem much more independent than people my age were. Women in particular weren't supposed to be very independent at all.

LOL they have seminars at universities now for parents on how to de-helicopter. No sh*t. The parents attend their own orientation while the kids go to theirs.

[Owlie]

LOL they have seminars at universities now for parents on how to de-helicopter. No sh*t. The parents attend their own orientation while the kids go to theirs.

Yep. The professor who teaches general chemistry does parent orientation sessions during the university's student orientation sessions. It's actually kind of depressing to watch. He'd go over what they'd be covering the first semester (why do they need to know that?), how the students could contact him, and then tell them that no, he couldn't legally tell them the kid's grades or whether they were attending class.

(I know this because I volunteered for two years to help out with the fun demonstrations he did.)

Mine were good at not being helicopter parents. They were involved, but never hovered.

[crazycanuck]

When i saw the title of this thread I thought of an awesome cool assistant prof @ my uni. On an excursion last year, we were discussing uni stuff & started talking about surfing etc. What struck me as interesting was that he didn't want to get out of "uni life" because the outside was too realistic & surfing was much more a part of who he is. He's not much older than me...

I'm not sure if i explained that correctly...

[Owlie]

CC, I've had a professor who's said something similar. It was more along the lines of the fact that part of the reason he stayed in academia was because the schedule let him do other things. If he wasn't teaching a summer class, he could do X or Y in the morning and then come in in the afternoon. If he were in industry, he couldn't do that.

[Crankin]

Pam, it is true that women have more opportunities today, than in my generation, but I never felt that anything was holding me back, mostly because my parents encouraged me to do anything I wanted. I think it's very dependent on how you are raised and where you are raised. When I was 13-14, I was hanging out in the city, on my own, using public transportation, going to cultural events and shopping with my friends. I also was doing stuff my parents wouldn't have liked! I've had other women I work with look at me like I was crazy when i tell stories about stuff I did as a teen. Yet, all of my friends were like me; I was probably a bit meeker than most of them. When I moved to Florida in high school, it was totally different.
Many of the parents of my kids' friends were aghast when I let them take the train to Cambridge or Boston, alone, when they were 15-16. They had done it many times with me; they could handle themselves. Many of the other parents wouldn't let their kids babysit, either, fearing lawsuits. They didn't let their kids get their licenses, or drive much if they had them. They spent most of their time harassing their kids to study and do millions of extra curricular activities. While my close friends weren't all like this, I would say the majority of the parents in the community were.

[shootingstar]

For the people who I know my age range and younger, the expectation is IF anyone chooses to have children, is to wait awhile to have lst child..meaning well into late 20's and early 30's.

It astounds me to see/hear of many university students, not yet completing their studies and going on vacation in Europe.

Then later they, complain being serious debt. Well they were still in debt before any trip overseas so why spend a pile more money on top. I do think the credit card use among young'uns is WAY bigger now than when I was in my 20's with my peers (that over 30 yrs. ago)/awareness of how they spent their money and paid for stuff.

I'm wondering this is all contributing a great deal more to credit card/personal debt.

[OakLeaf]

Shootingstar, don't neglect the effect that predatory lending has had on these kids.

Obviously they need to take responsibility. But that responsibility has to be shared between the kids; their parents who never taught them financial skills; their elementary and high schools that also never taught them financial skills; and the predatory lenders themselves.

In order to go to college at all, a kid needs to sign on the dotted line for an amount of money so large they've probably never imagined it in their life. By definition they don't have the ability or a plan to pay it back - that's what the education they're borrowing for is "supposed" to give them. (Which has been shown to be false in most cases, but that's another rant. )

Now they're softened up for all the credit card offers that start arriving in their mailbox. And they have been deluged with them for the past 25 years - it had just started when I was in law school. The current debt crisis put a little blip in that, but it's started to pick up again. A kid's 18 years old with all the maturity that entails. They've never made more than $7.25 an hour or worked in a full-time permanent position. They just signed a loan for anywhere from $15,000 to $50,000, and that's just for their first year of an anticipated four. They get an offer in the mail for a credit card with a $500 or $1,000 limit. "What's the difference between $50,000 I can't pay off, and $50,500 I can't pay off?" You and I know there is a difference, but it's pretty darned hard to see for an 18-year-old with no financial education.

[limewave]

I never had an appreciation for the great education I had until my adult years. There are so many things we learned in school that I assumed everyone had to learn in public school. We had a mandatory class that taught budgeting and how to balance a check book. We had mock incomes and expenses, retirement funds, etc. We learned all about how credit cards and loans worked.

When we were really young, my parents opened savings accounts for us. We deposited money every week. When I wanted something that cost more than my allowance, we put it on layaway and I made payments each week until I paid it off.

We aren't in the best financial position right now. I blame my husband (lol) who had no financial education at all. I just assumed he had been taught the same things I had.

[Owlie]

The sum total of financial education I got (from an overwhelmingly upper middle-class school district) was one semester in high school. It spent about a month teaching us how to write a check. By contrast, it spent relatively little time on things like loans, credit cards or pretty much anything that wasn't already common sense. Really useful, that.

Hopefully I don't sound too whiny...

I went to a private university. I managed to graduate debt-free (thanks to some generous gifts from grandparents, wise savings by my parents and scholarships). That wiped out my savings, save what's in the sum total of what's in my own savings account. And this is where I'm going to have to admit to joining the ranks for people you're railing against. I'm existing on parental handouts, because I can't find a job, not for lack of trying. No one in my field wants to hire a fresh-out-of-college worker, because they can hire someone with years of experience who got laid off. (In addition, I'm in a field where you really need to have a graduate degree.) No one in retail or food service particularly wants to hire someone with a college degree, because they know that as soon as something better comes along, that person is going to leave. There just isn't a lot out there.

Now, it was my intent all along to go to graduate school. That will likely mean I need to take out a loan. Even if I get into a program where they offer a stipend, I'll likely have to pay for books and initial living expenses by credit card. You can't get away from it.

I got relatively lucky. Unlike many of my peers, I'll just have graduate school loan debt. Many of the ones that were in my classes will have undergraduate as well as graduate, medical or law school debt. Most of the engineering students I know are in debt up to their eyeballs, with not a lot of scope for paying it off. I also have friends from high school in similar situations. And like Oak said, the attitude a lot of them take is "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb."

[limewave]

And like Oak said, the attitude a lot of them take is "you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb."

That WAS dh's philosophy. He's singing a different tune now.

[Crankin]

It's a hard call. We told our kids we would pay for their college, no matter what. DS #1 was accepted at 5 small liberal arts colleges and U Mass. He chose to go to one of the liberal arts schools. DH could not say no... was so proud of him. We took out a 30K loan from the state for the 1st year, just to be safe. In the summer between 1st and 2nd yr. DH had pen in hand (not kidding here) to write the check for the fall semester tuition for yr. 2. He jokingly said, "I hope you like it, because this is *** expensive." And DS replied, "Actually, I hate it. I was too embarrassed to tell you, but I want to go to U Mass." Inside, I was secretly jumping for joy, because it meant no more loans. Since it was too late for DS to transfer for the fall, he went back out to western MA (the first school was in the same town as U Mass), rented a room from the friend of one of my friends, got 2 part time jobs, and took 2 classes at night school, until January. We paid off the loan and the rest of his education was paid for by me, from my paycheck. He worked part time during the rest of his college; we expected him to pay for all of his entertainment, gas, etc. During the summers he was a barista and painted houses for 2 summers. None of his friends did any such manual labor. We bought him a small car, put it in his name, so he could establish credit. So, we set him up to be able to take an entry level job when he graduated, debt free, but I have to say he worked more than any of his other friends. Four days after he graduated he moved into his first apartment, started work and has never moved back home.
We gave DS #2 the same deal, but after one year at U of A (where he started as a sophomore), enlisted in the Marines. He said his life had been "too easy," and he wanted to do something really hard. So, my college obligation ended after 5 years, instead of 8.
I know some people that tell their kids they have to pay for their own education, even when they have the $ to pay for college. I couldn't do that. I tried to find the happy medium, where my kids had to work, know the value of $, but not have to worry about their tuition, because they knew we were committed to their education.

[roadie gal]

Great discussion!

I was never a kid, until my 30s. I had a very difficult younger life and had to take responsibility for my younger siblings (as well as my parents) as a child. I went to college and med school as a way to get out of the house and to be responsible for myself. Finally, in my late 20s I had enough time and money to "be a kid".

For a while I did the rock climbing, etc. high risk sports. But a few years ago I realized that it wasn't for me. I was doing a lot of stuff because I could and not because I loved it. I'm more comfortable being active in a "lower risk" way. My decision wasn't based on anyone else's perception but on MY comfort level.

Now I lead a deliberately boring life: a house, a job, 2 dogs, 2 cats and a long term SO. And I LOVE it.

I think that people should be allowed to do what makes them happy as long as they're taking responsibility for themselves and not putting anyone else at risk. That includes people who are dependent on them, such as their spouses, children, etc.

I know a lot of people who do extreme skiing, climbing, and river rafting. When I talk to them I don't think, "Wow, I'm missing some great stuff". I think, "I'm so glad I'm not stressing myself out doing that anymore. I'm glad they're happy."