Hogging the road

[Cataboo]

If you are riding down a road that you don't feel you can slow down safely or use a pull off or pull over a bit to the side to let a car pass you - and by nature it is a 1.5 lane road in which 2 way traffic goes... Then you can't safely go down that hill - because what the hell are you going to do if a car is coming up the hill at you? You guys can tell me all about how the car should give way because there is no way that the cyclist can safely give way, but the reality is that if there's no way that the cyclist can safely give way or slow down, then she shouldn't be there.

And if that's the case that it is not safe to slow down going on that hill, or pull over in a pull off - then really, you shouldn't be lapping that hill. If you live in that neighborhood and you have to go down the hill to get home, then okay that's one thing - but doing that hill repeatedly isn't safe.

Op said that the rider was riding her brakes all the way down and going slowly - if that's the case, it doesn't sound like a situation where pulling over into a pulloff would be hazardous to their health.

I think op presented her concerns and how surprised she was to be irritated at the cyclist very honestly.

[KnottedYet]

Everybody should get off every damm road I'm on, regardless of whether I'm on a bike or in a car.

GET OFF!!! MINE!!!!!!!! OUT OF MY WAY AND OFF MY BUTT!!!!!!!!!

That's "sharing the road" in my book.

(ETA for the sarcasm-impared: /snark)

[smilingcat]

sefishness misplaced!!

So is the bicyclist selfish for hogging the lane on a fast descent?

what about the car driver who HAS TO BE IN FRONT OF A CYCLIST NO MATTER WHAT?

or the driver who is in too much of a hurry and can't be bothered by "inconvenience of a "slower" traffic albeit at the speed limit?

JOBOB BE SAFE AND TAKE THE WHOLE ()*&^)O LANE!! DON'T RIDE ON THE SHOULDER JUST TO BE "NICE"

If you are impeding traffic, maybe you should think of pulling over.
But if you are going at the speed limit, they can chew their cud.

Some of the beef I have is we were raised to be nice and polite and lately, its gotten on my nerves. And lately, I've been in or seen situation where a person was going out of their way to be nice and polite to someone downright rude and self-centered. Thus my caustic remark. I'm usually not this hostile but the misplaced nice and being polite just RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY!!

[oz rider]

They didn't pay attention to what you actually said, or to the conditions you described. Let's hope they are more observant when biking.

I think only one person addressed the actual issue -- which was the safety of the cyclist pulling into a turnout. Most people assumed you wanted the cyclist to ride on the side of the road during a fast descent, which you didn't say at all.

Here is part of the op in case we lean to revisionism:
She completely hogged the road and would not pull over, even though all she needed to do was move a few feet and slow down at one of the turn outs (no need to even stop the bike) and let me by. ... That's not sharing the road. Wish she would find another training place....

The OP is entitled to her view and I congratulate her for examining it. But the contrary view - that a car does not have an inflated right to priority - is equally valid. We're all equal but some are more equal than others? If anything, the car's capacity to kill confers a higher duty to give space and time around more vulnerable road users. If people could leave an extra 30 seconds per trip, both their blood pressure and cyclists would be safer.

jobob, I think it's encouraging that you would be quite safe with many of us (and most drivers) following you down hill or anywhere else.

[channlluv]

Holy moly. I don't think the OP meant to raise such a stink, and she sure wasn't attacking anyone personally about how they descend a hill except maybe the cyclist she was following that bugged her so much. I don't understand why some of you are taking her comments so personally.

I took her comments about the safety of the road to be indicative of her own experience (limited) and comfort level (low) with steep roads. She said she doesn't ride this road because she thinks it's not safe. I'm okay with that. As a less-experienced cyclist, I make the same choice when it comes to riding in traffic. Maybe OP was projecting her own misgivings about this road onto the cyclist. I'm just saying, maybe.

Grog, thanks for that detailed and well-reasoned list of reasons to take the lane. I didn't know half of what you were talking about because I don't do hills. Or traffic. I'm just not there yet. I'm strictly a quiet-neighborhood-street/MUP girl. But now I'll be a lot more cognizant of the dangers should I find myself on a one-and-a-half-lane road with a 15% decline.

I'd probably have gotten annoyed at the cyclist, too, if I thought she was snotty, rude, and discourteous to me and my neighbors. Some people just aren't open to friendly, well-meaning overtures, especially if those people are deep in a focused workout and trying to concentrate on getting up that hill one more time. Or maybe the OP wasn't the first resident of that road to comment on her being there. That could make her defensive if she thought people were complaining about her riding up and down their private road.

I would imagine a lot of us have been in situations where cyclists have bugged us when we were driving. It happened to me a couple of days ago, even. But still, I think OP's point is that this cyclist DOES have the opportunity to safely pull out and let faster traffic go by, but she chooses not to. It's a little fuzzy, not knowing what the actual incline is and how fast they were actually going, whether or not it would actually be safe for her to do so, but after being snubbed by her, yeah, I think I'd probably have the same reaction as the OP.

Nice is still nice. Manners count. But so does safety. Take the lane if that's the safest thing for you to do, but realize if cars are piling up behind you that you're putting an awful lot of faith in other people's driving, even if you do have every right to be there. Of course, that's true any time we're on the road, on four wheels or two.

One of the driving rules my grandfather taught me: "It's better to be right than dead." Meaning, be a defensive driver and if someone's going to do something aggressive or stupid, don't get in their way, even if you have the right of way. Doesn't that go for cycling, too? (I concede that that may be difficult if you're on a 20% decline going 50mph.)

Please be patient with each other. Those of you who are more experienced (Mr. Bloom, Mimi, Knot, Trek, BleekerStGirl), thank you for sharing your perspectives. I always learn so much from you and I look forward to your posts.


Roxy

[PamNY]

Here is part of the op in case we lean to revisionism:
She completely hogged the road and would not pull over, even though all she needed to do was move a few feet and slow down at one of the turn outs (no need to even stop the bike) and let me by. ... That's not sharing the road. Wish she would find another training place.....

Oz, what you quoted proves my point.

Maybe some of you haven't seen that kind of road? This is a road too narrow for vehicles to pass, so there is an occasional wide area in the road specifically designed to solve that problem. I saw them a lot in rural areas when I was growing up.

The presence of turnouts makes all the difference in the cyclist's safety. That the OP specifically said "at the turnout" proves she is thinking of the cyclist's safety.

Discussion of the dangers of riding near the shoulder clearly meets some sort of emotional need, but it has nothing to do with the actual road conditions in the situation the OP described.

[jessmarimba]

At this point, I think we're just all reiterating the same argument to ourselves. There is no way the OP could stand up to this, even if her points were valid and the way they came across was just misinterpreted (as can happen with text).

So, here's some virtual coffee and homemade poundcake to everyone, and I hope all of you have a good day today!

[Veronica]

So, here's some virtual coffee and homemade poundcake to everyone, and I hope all of you have a good day today!

What kind of pound cake? I only eat certain kinds so I won't have a good day unless it's the right kind.

Veronica

[Grog]

I spend a lot of time thinking about road safety both as a cyclist and as a driver (and as a pedestrian walking in construction zones every day and as an office dweller working in a building with laboratories handling hazardous materials and as someone who lives in a place where we're expecting a very big earthquake, probably sometime in my lifetime, etc.). I was taught to always keep an eye on my "emergency exits", it can save my life in a building, in a plane, on the road.

I couldn't help but think about this thread still on my commute this morning, forgive me for sharing some more thoughts. While I do want to engage with Featuretile's (the OP's) case specifically, and I feel for her considering that this thread has taken about the same turn as if she was asking about how best to listen to her iPod while riding, I think it's more important to think about the principles one should think of adopting as a cyclist and as a driver in similar situations (narrow, steep road, cyclist descending, followed by a car, road with pullouts).

Let's say I'm going down a hill, fast (even if I'm riding the brakes I will be going somewhat fast). What maneuver do I have to do to pull over on the side of the road, considering the dangers I have listed in my previous message?

- I can slow down in my existing position in the traveling lane to a speed where I feel comfortable moving over to the shoulder. If I have a car on my tail, it's dangerous to slow down while in the traveling lane: there is no way for me to know how much attention the driver is paying to the road, to my speed, or... to the stereo or to the toddler screaming in the backseat. I don't consider that as an option.

- I can move to the shoulder and then slow down. This is also dangerous because I become more exposed to risks ahead of me as I get closer to the shoulder, but still don't have the greater room for compensation that slower speed would give me. I definitely would not see that as a safe option either.

In that quarter-of-a-second when I have to make a decision about this (remember, this is happening pretty fast and I have other things to think about, such as my line descending the hill), I would probably decide to carry on with my initial strategy (take the lane) down to the bottom of the road. Of course, if there is a car or another obstacle coming ahead of me, I will adjust my course accordingly.

Because I'm that kind of person, and I felt there was a need, I would probably wait for the driver to catch up with me at the bottom - or if they passed me in a manner that did not feel safe, I would do my best to catch up with them at the next stop sign, and I would engage in dialogue with them as much as I can. If they were so close that I suspect they could actually see it when I was riding the brakes on my bike, the dialogue might make me a bit nervous though, and my words would not come across as peacefully as I would want to. I would explain the motive for my riding strategy to the driver, and see what happens from there, with the objective of better cohabitation and peace of mind for all involved. At that time, if it was a private road and the driver, as a resident, had an issue with me riding there, it would be a good opportunity to share it with me. However, I would not be very phased by the driver's remarks on *my* safety, even if the driver had a car on their rooftop and was wearing cycling gear. That's my assessment to make, and I think a lot of cyclists have a very poor understanding of their own safety anyway. Their problem, not mine (except when the other cyclist is my husband and is riding in the door zone - arrrg!).

As a driver, if this happened to me, I would perhaps feel a bit annoyed the first time this happened, like you Featuretile. Then I would spend a lot of time thinking about it - as you have maybe. And maybe the next time I would pull over to the side of the road myself (a much less risky maneuver for a car, especially if there is nobody behind me), stop, and count to ten. By the time I get on the road again, the "annoyance" would be long gone...

[OakLeaf]

Exactly, Grog, and thanks for that.

I think most all of us knew instinctively that the turnout is NOT safe for cyclists, but couldn't articulate why. (I'd add that the turnouts I've seen usually aren't paved ... and there's extra debris from the turnouts in the adjacent shoulder ... making them even more dangerous.)

It's entirely appropriate to expect someone to pull over WHEN IT'S SAFE, whether that someone is piloting a bicycle, a state mowing rig, a school bus, or just a car that they probably shouldn't be driving at all but think that they're okay if they drive 10 mph below the limit. Or if they're driving a car in a safe, normal fashion, and the person behind them is on a motorcycle that can take the corners 15-20 mph faster.

Keyword: "when it's safe." Grog did a terrific job of explaining why it isn't.

Whenever I get annoyed with someone on the road (which is rarely a cyclist - and when it is, it's usually someone riding against traffic or doing something else that really frightens me, rather than just inconveniencing me) - I take a breath. Think about what it's really going to cost me to wait another ten seconds versus what it costs me in stress hormones, etc., to give in to the feeling. Then just deal with it in as non-confrontational a manner as I can.

[jobob]

Thank you so much Grog. (Oakleaf too! And everyone else who has chimed in.)

In particular, Grog's most recent post and her earlier posts are absolutely spot-on (imho, of course).

[jessmarimba]

I just wanted to throw this in here, too...

We are assuming (and likely correctly, but still assuming) that the OP is talking about a cyclist on a road bike. I've been known to do road hill repeats on my mtb, simply b/c that's what I ride on a regular basis. My mountain bike (and please don't judge me for the quality of my bike) would only go 25 mph on a descent if I threw it off a cliff. In that case, I would NOT be "sharing the road" by taking the lane and riding my brakes down in front of a car. Which is why, if it was me on my bike, it would be a better idea to pull off into a turnout. Besides which, I've already demonstrated my aptitude in flying over the bars and I'd rather do that behind a vehicle.

Not to argue with any of the valid points that have been made here. Simply to illustrate that situations may vary. I think the point everyone has made is that we all have to judge our situation and do whatever we feel is safest.

[Owlie]

I'm a little hesitant on commenting here, because I'd rather not be ripped to shreds, but here goes:

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I'm a newbie. I hate descents. I hate riding in traffic. I really hate having a car on my tail. I'll pull over at stop signs (easiest place to do it around here) and wave cars past me because I don't want them behind me. I wouldn't feel safe in the situation described--it's either possibly get hit by a car coming from either direction, or risk the shoulder, with all manner of road debris. I read the OP as projecting her own anxieties about riding on that particular road onto the cyclist--"are you crazy? I wouldn't do that!" I know I say this in my head as I read about many of you bombing down steep mountain roads or the like. And sometimes, I find that gets translated into "I wouldn't do that, so it must be stupid." I'm working on remembering that you all have different risk tolerances than I do.

And yes, I've found myself getting annoyed at cyclists while I'm driving. I take a deep breath, and remember what I'd like drivers to do when I'm out on my bike.

That said, if I were riding down a hill that steep, I'm not sure I could negotiate my way into a turnout. It would be easier on my nerves and on my current bike-handling skills to keep going in the lane, even if there were a car on my tail. I know there's a hill in my neighborhood where it's actually safer to ride in the middle of the road for a little way, because of the steepness of the hill and the way the road curves at the bottom. I'd hope that anyone driving behind me would understand and be a little patient with me.

Here. I brought a plate of cookies. Enjoy!

[PamNY]

IMy mountain bike (and please don't judge me for the quality of my bike) would only go 25 mph on a descent if I threw it off a cliff.

What a great description -- mind if I borrow it?

By now, I am consumed with curiosity about this woman.

If both the shoulder and the turnouts are dangerous, and she can't safely stop or slow down, what does she plan to do if a car is coming toward her?

[OakLeaf]

... I've had my hybrid to 37 on a straight (and not very long) descent. I certainly wouldn't do that on that bike on something curvy, not with my skills and the tires that are on it, but I'm just saying... unless your wheel or freehub bearings are seized, it WILL go that fast.