Hogging the road

[XMcShiftersonX]

+1 to Grog. Cyclists have a right to use the road safely - no way would I pull in to the marbles on a descent to allow a car to pass me (possibly) too closely and destabilise me with its wash. Is my safety not worth 10 or even 30 seconds to someone in a car?

And how is a descending cyclist not sharing the road? We have drivers here who think 'sharing the road' means cyclists getting out of their way. It hasn't dawned on some that it might mean they have to respect bikes as equal road users. There is no road rule here saying I'm a second class citizen on a bike but superior in a car and thus nothing that supports driver convenience over cyclist convenience, let alone cyclist safety. I don't see them ranting that a garbage truck holds them up for 10 seconds - let alone the other 1000 cars in front of them.

Maybe you guys have really law-abiding drivers, but 88% of our offences are traffic offences, overwhelmingly committed in cars. Yet I don't hear our drivers ranting about cars running reds, not using indicators, speeding, drunk drivers ... and they kill over a thousand people a year. Why are cyclists held to a higher moral standard on such matters when cyclists are so benign? It doesn't make sense. The double standard is insidious.

Agree 100%.

And as for her not being very "nice"... I hesitate to judge. Because #1 at that particular point she didn't know you were a cyclist (you were getting your mail), she didn't know your motives, and as it turns out you were an irritated resident wondering what the hell she was doing on "your" road when you didn't think she should be riding there (although I would hope your tone didn't come off that way). She could have been tired from doing her hill repeats, focused on what she was doing, or having a bad day and using exercise to blow off steam, and lastly, she was riding her bike. Whether she was turning around or not, did you expect she would stop and have a full on conversation with a stranger? Some people aren't comfortable talking with people they don't know, and aren't social butterflies, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm guessing that might be why she prefers to ride alone, rather than with a club.

But, you know, your feelings are your own. We know you're not going to act out against her because of your feelings, and that's the most important thing. I just think it would probably be more productive to not get worked up about something that isn't likely to change, since she legally has a right to ride on that road.

[smilingcat]

I'm sorry but just didn't have the stomach to read through all the good posts.

I will say this:

If the cyclist was going down the hill near or above the speed limit, don't complain.
If you had to exceed the speed limit to pass her don't complain.
It seems that the grade you are talking about and the sharp turns, I think she was going over 25MPH, and I would guess that 25MPH was the speed limit.

I have had cars who DEMANDED THAT THEY BE IN FRONT OF ME REGARDLESS OF HOW FAST I WAS COMING DOWN THE HILL. THIS INCLUDES NUMEROUS TIMES WHEN THE CAR ALMOST WENT OVER THE EMBANKMENT DOWN A 100 FOOT CLIFF. OR FISHED TAILED SO HARD THAT I THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO CRASH INTO A GUARD RAIL AND HEARD THEM SKIDDING AROUND A HAIRPIN TURN!! I WATCH THEM SKIDDING AROUND THE TURN.

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A CAR DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BE IN FRONT OF A FAST BICYCLE!!

and +1 to all who thought this through carefully!
THANK YOU!! FOR LETTING ME VENT!!

[featuretile]

When I saw her at my mailbox, I was stopped and so was she. It was a different time, many weeks before the downhill drive behind her. I told her I was a cyclist and introduced myself. I thought she might be a neighbor and might like to ride together.

I won't belabor this anymore. If she is there and takes the road, there is nothing I can do but follow at a safe distance. I would not personally choose to do what she does. I'm surprised at how many people think that taking the road and making cars crawl down behind them is the better way to go. It doesn't help to make enemies of people in cars. I have taken the lane in situations that required it, but have pulled over as soon as I could find a safe place. I would not want to hit a rock or a crack in the road (or meet an oncoming car in this case) with a car right behind me, especially if the car was tailgating. I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

[Biciclista]

we were really hoping you'd understand just how seriously difficult it is for cyclists to "pull over to the side" on a steep and winding hill. It's a life or death thing... or at least serious injury. All of us know someone who DID get too far over into the shoulder and crashed and burned..

[jobob]

No, the safest thing for *her* to do was to not deviate from her line and continue to descend the hill.....

Yep.

we were really hoping you'd understand just how seriously difficult it is for cyclists to "pull over to the side" on a steep and winding hill. It's a life or death thing... or at least serious injury. All of us know someone who DID get too far over into the shoulder and crashed and burned..

Yep.

I used to tend to be too far over to the right on downhills.

You would have liked me back then, featuretile.

I'd worry sooooo much about inconveniencing drivers, even though more often than not I was faster than them on downhills, or, if not faster, then going at a comparable speed. But I'd still move way too far over to the right, even though (in case you haven't noticed) that's where most of the debris in the road collects, and the ruts in the road seem to be the worst.

Yep, you would have really liked me back then.

Then, over a year & a half ago, some folks (including a few TE-ers and my DH) helped scrape me off the pavement when I hit a rut near the edge of the road on a steep downhill.

Little 'ol courteous me, trying not to get in anyone's way. That misplaced courtesy nearly got me killed (and, I'm told, messed up traffic for a good long time while they brought in the emergency crews and the helicopter to transport me to the trauma center. Whoopsie. My bad.).

You would not like me now.

Or, at least, you would not like to follow me now.

Nowadays I will not put my life at risk for the sake of saving someone a few moments. If the situation warrants it, I'll take the lane. A few moments of someone's day is not worth jeopardizing my entire life anymore.

Funny what a few days in a trauma center, four weeks with double vision and over three months in a back brace will do to one's definition of "inconvenience".

[crazycanuck]

There's no freakin way i'm getting close to the sides of some of our roads!! There's NOTHING on the side..except for honkey nuts & pea gravel.

I'll hog the road thanks.

[OakLeaf]

I couldn't say it any better than jobob did.

I'd add that I don't know what difference it makes to an automobile driver whether she's doing hill repeats or just passing through. Unless the motorist is ALSO doing hill repeats, they'll encounter her exactly once.

As far as it being a private road ... that's a tough one. Our group does a couple of loops through gated communities. Although I don't join them for it, they do sprint intervals there one day a week. I would hate to see the relationship get confrontational. Because the low traffic density means they tend to be the safest place to ride.

[radacrider]

Seems like this kinda went from the OP more or less venting about an experience to 4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good.

I don't believe the OP was saying the cyclist should ride way to the right and I do not believe the OP was saying the cyclist should not be taking the lane.

I see the whole issue as not so much about legalities, but more about what does it mean to share the road.

Does sharing the road mean "I have a legal right to be here so the heck with anyone else around me"?

Here's what I think it means to me and is how I share the road. (Note: Your mileage and experience may vary, and that's cool, cuz you aren't me, you are you)

I am a car and bike person. I have sat in traffic in both. Sharing the road means not just with different road users, but also same (car and car, bike and bike). Sharing is not just about bikes and cars. This morning I rode in, it was dark, along a neighborhood bikeway. Two other cyclists were just ahead. I could see a pedestrian waiting to cross. The two cyclists went by, I slowed and waved the pedestrian to cross and she called out, "thank you."

Legally I could just zoom by, I chose to let the pedestrian cross - sharing the space we were in.

I've waved cars on when on my bike. I've waved bikes on when in my car (even though legally I was not required to do so). I've been waved on by peds and bikes, in my car. I stop where safe to let others cross the road (for both peds and bikes).

I really think it is about sharing, being aware of who is around you, making choices. I won't always like others' choices, but I do not have control over them. Again, seems to have less to do with who is in what vehicle and who has what legal right, but rather about not liking another's choice when it seems to negatively impact us.

I understand the OP's frustration. I've had that with other road users. My frustration was not about whether the other had legal rights to be on the road, more about "I wish they could see they are doing under the speed limit and building a line of cars behind them, can't they pull over for a bit to let some of us by?"

Anyway, just saying ...

[oz rider]

I'm surprised at how many people think that taking the road and making cars crawl down behind them is the better way to go. It doesn't help to make enemies of people in cars.

It's safe and legal as well. Braking hard enough to stop on turnouts at the inclines you describe could well get you run over by some drivers who wouldn't notice the braking.

But more than that, I think some drivers take this sort of thing as a personal affront from a cyclist but not from a truck (self preservation?) We don't do it to make life difficult for cars; we're just trying to get down the hill safely and cars should learn to take their turn. What's unfair about that? They don't have some divine right to unimpeded progress. That said, I think I'm polite on the bike and sometimes even offer them training treats like a little wave or a nod or a smile if they are obviously polite or careful too.

[Cataboo]

I think you guys are all being pretty unfair to op - I don't think she thinks that she has a divine right to unimpeded progress and the various other things that have been said throughout here. She's admitted she was surprised to find herself so irritated.

And it's pretty clear that there are extenuating circumstances beyond how to safely descend down a hill in this case - if you're riding laps on a 1 lane private hill there really isn't a way to do it safely and not to annoy all the people that live in that neighborhood. Any car going up or down that hill would be giving way and going into the pullouts as is safe. And I doubt op would have a problem with the cyclist taking the lane if it was a larger road in general.

So if she's descending down this 1 lane road and there is a car going up this one lane road... Should the cyclist just stick in the middle of the road because that's her right and the car doesnt have a divine right to unimpeded progress?

So we can all agree that taking the lane is often the safest way to descend, but can we all agree that perhaps the cyclist in this case would be a lot safer in general if she were riding laps on a different hill?

In general when I'm riding, I'm very aware that cars are 80 times bigger than me and quite capable of killing me. I often wave cars that are hovering behind me to pass me, because I don't want them behind me. If I see any cars coming behind me when I am about to descend down a hill that I know I need to take the lane for, I generally stop at the top, wait for them to pass me and then descend. That's because I don't want a car behind me if for some reason I wipe out and I'm splat across the road, because being splat + run over is worse than just being splat. I do take the lane when it's necessary for my safety, however, I don't take the lane just to teach cars a lesson that it's not just their road or whatever.

[PamNY]

I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

They didn't pay attention to what you actually said, or to the conditions you described. Let's hope they are more observant when biking.

I think only one person addressed the actual issue -- which was the safety of the cyclist pulling into a turnout. Most people assumed you wanted the cyclist to ride on the side of the road during a fast descent, which you didn't say at all.

I agree that being courteous when you can do so safely is a good idea. I do it all the time -- as a car driver, pedestrian, Xootr rider, and cyclist.

[Eden]

I honestly don't feel like pulling any punches on this topic....

I think the OP started this whole topic hostilely by titling it "Hogging the Road" in the first place.....

I think that she probably instantly alienated the rider by suggesting that the road was unsafe to ride on in the first place - I personally would find it condescending to me if someone suggested I ride someplace "nicer" when I'm doing hill repeats.....

What really worked me up though was that the OP then tried to justify her desire for the rider to move out of her way by saying it would be more safe - which I'm calling complete BS on. If you truly cared about the safety of the cyclist you would just let her be rather than expecting her to move to allow you to get around. Do you really think its that easy to just pull over or stop on a 15% down grade - no so much.... just trying to dismount your bike while pitched forward like that can cause a person to slide and fall (especially on slippery cleats).

Debate whether she should be on your private road all you want to, but don't even try to pass off your not wanting to wait behind her as somehow caring about her safety. If you actually cared, you wouldn't have minded waiting in the first place and you wouldn't have started this thread...

Jobob - *never* feel guilt about doing what you need to, to be safe. One way or the other one of you (you or the driver) is ultimately "selfish" - but I think it is waaaaaaaaaaay more justifiable for you to be selfish with your health and welfare than it is for the motorist to be selfish with a few seconds of his/her time.

[PamNY]

What really worked me up though was that the OP then tried to justify her desire for the rider to move out of her way by saying it would be more safe - which I'm calling complete BS on. If you truly cared about the safety of the cyclist you would just let her be rather than expecting her to move to allow you to get around. Do you really think its that easy to just pull over or stop on a 15% down grade - no so much.... just trying to dismount your bike while pitched forward like that can cause a person to slide and fall (especially on slippery cleats)..

I don't actually know what the challenges of biking in the situation would be -- that's one reason I was disappointed the topic went the way it did. I love reading about biking in conditions different from what I experience -- it's educational.

Many of the dangers noted as being perilous for someone riding toward the edge of the road (animals running into the road, for example) would be easier to handle without a car behind you. If it's a lightly traveled road and pulling over meant I'd be free of a trailing car for a while, then I might definitely feel that pulling over would be slightly safer and therefore desirable.

[Cataboo]

If you are riding down a road that you don't feel you can slow down safely or use a pull off or pull over a bit to the side to let a car pass you - and by nature it is a 1.5 lane road in which 2 way traffic goes... Then you can't safely go down that hill - because what the hell are you going to do if a car is coming up the hill at you? You guys can tell me all about how the car should give way because there is no way that the cyclist can safely give way, but the reality is that if there's no way that the cyclist can safely give way or slow down, then she shouldn't be there.

And if that's the case that it is not safe to slow down going on that hill, or pull over in a pull off - then really, you shouldn't be lapping that hill. If you live in that neighborhood and you have to go down the hill to get home, then okay that's one thing - but doing that hill repeatedly isn't safe.

Op said that the rider was riding her brakes all the way down and going slowly - if that's the case, it doesn't sound like a situation where pulling over into a pulloff would be hazardous to their health.

I think op presented her concerns and how surprised she was to be irritated at the cyclist very honestly.

[KnottedYet]

Everybody should get off every damm road I'm on, regardless of whether I'm on a bike or in a car.

GET OFF!!! MINE!!!!!!!! OUT OF MY WAY AND OFF MY BUTT!!!!!!!!!

That's "sharing the road" in my book.

(ETA for the sarcasm-impared: /snark)