Hogging the road

[Grog]

On a narrow, steep hill, I will always take the lane, it's much, much safer. If I let them pass me they are likely to squeeze me off the road on their way back down or I will have to brake because I descend faster than they do, especially going through turns. The car is much less of a danger to me if it's behind me than if it's ahead of me on a road like that...

[Grog]

I was thinking about this thread this morning on my (bike) commute to work, which is on a rather hilly route. I don't normally log into Team Estrogen from work but this was bugging me enough that I wanted to get it off my chest.

Any cyclist who thinks it's a good idea to stay closer than 6-10 feet from the side of the road on a descent where the cyclist will hit speeds of more than 20 mph is at great risk. Here are a few reasons why I refuse to put myself at risk for the (imagined) convenience of others:

- I am going much faster than the driver thinks I am. I regularly hit speeds of 70kph (43 mph) and above. My max-ever speed on a long windy descent is 85 kph (50 mph). There isn't a day on the bike where I don't go faster than 45 kph (almost 30 mph) at some point.*
- At 50 kph I am traveling 14 meters per second (almost 50 feet).
- My capacity to stop is greatly reduced at high speed..
- I need to keep my options open at all time. If I am too close to the right side of the road, even for one second, I have nowhere to go in case of a problem. Always know where the emergency exits are and how to get there.
- There is very often debris on the road, and there is even more debris as one gets close to the shoulder. I need to be able to see debris ahead of time and steer accordingly, all of this at high speed.
- Deer can jump out of the woods at any time on a rural road.
- Squirrel, coyotes, racoons, and skunks can come out of the side of the road at any time in urban and rural environments.
- Children and adults who are not looking at the road also come out. If it's a quiet rural road they are not suspecting there will be a fast-descending vehicle on that road, especially one they cannot hear.
- Folks on mountain bikes can dart out of a road-side trail as well. My father-in-law hit a young guy who did not look when coming out of a trail as he was descending a long hill at high speed. That's 6 years and he still suffers from the consequences of that accident today. (The kid apparently was fine, as he left my father-in-law unconscious on the road and took off.)
- Drivers come out of driveways, sometimes backing off, and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder.
- Drivers coming in the other direction are preparing to make left turns into my path to enter a driveway and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder. They also underestimate my speed. I have to make a strong impression on them.
- The driver behind me might want to make a right turn in a driveway ahead. They are also underestimating my speed, are likely to pass me and then hit the brakes to make their turn, putting me in great danger.
- The driver behind me will hit the brakes when approaching the next turn, putting me at risk of rear-ending them or having to pass them on the left.
- On the other side of a blind corner there will be the proverbial truck stopped and, in the other lane, the refrigerator that fell off the back of the truck. I need to be in full control of the space and to benefit from some reaction time. (Note that I don't go at 85 kph if there are blind corners!!!)

The correct position on the road, when descending at any speed, if you imagine is somewhere in the central third of the road.

The driver of the car behind me might get a little impatient, but the chances that the driver is enough of a maniac to actually run me over from behind are much lower than the chances of any of the above happening. As for honking, they should keep both hands on the steering wheel, but if they do, it will not impact my descending strategy. My safety is in my own hands and I will definitely let them go by when I feel that it is safe to do so.


*This is also the reason why, unless going through a turn, I keep moving my legs even if I'm not actually applying force to the pedals anymore. This conveys a stronger impression to the driver that I am actually moving rather fast.

[Biciclista]

everything she said.
+++++++++++++++100000
so use a little patience. It might save a life and teach some other drivers that it can be done.

I was thinking about this thread this morning on my (bike) commute to work, which is on a rather hilly route. I don't normally log into Team Estrogen from work but this was bugging me enough that I wanted to get it off my chest.

Any cyclist who thinks it's a good idea to stay closer than 6-10 feet from the side of the road on a descent where the cyclist will hit speeds of more than 20 mph is at great risk. Here are a few reasons why I refuse to put myself at risk for the (imagined) convenience of others:

- I am going much faster than the driver thinks I am. I regularly hit speeds of 70kph (43 mph) and above. My max-ever speed on a long windy descent is 85 kph (50 mph). There isn't a day on the bike where I don't go faster than 45 kph (almost 30 mph) at some point.*
- At 50 kph I am traveling 14 meters per second (almost 50 feet).
- My capacity to stop is greatly reduced at high speed..
- I need to keep my options open at all time. If I am too close to the right side of the road, even for one second, I have nowhere to go in case of a problem. Always know where the emergency exits are and how to get there.
- There is very often debris on the road, and there is even more debris as one gets close to the shoulder. I need to be able to see debris ahead of time and steer accordingly, all of this at high speed.
- Deer can jump out of the woods at any time on a rural road.
- Squirrel, coyotes, racoons, and skunks can come out of the side of the road at any time in urban and rural environments.
- Children and adults who are not looking at the road also come out. If it's a quiet rural road they are not suspecting there will be a fast-descending vehicle on that road, especially one they cannot hear.
- Folks on mountain bikes can dart out of a road-side trail as well. My father-in-law hit a young guy who did not look when coming out of a trail as he was descending a long hill at high speed. That's 6 years and he still suffers from the consequences of that accident today. (The kid apparently was fine, as he left my father-in-law unconscious on the road and took off.)
- Drivers come out of driveways, sometimes backing off, and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder.
- Drivers coming in the other direction are preparing to make left turns into my path to enter a driveway and they are looking at the traveling lane, not at the shoulder. They also underestimate my speed. I have to make a strong impression on them.
- The driver behind me might want to make a right turn in a driveway ahead. They are also underestimating my speed, are likely to pass me and then hit the brakes to make their turn, putting me in great danger.
- The driver behind me will hit the brakes when approaching the next turn, putting me at risk of rear-ending them or having to pass them on the left.
- On the other side of a blind corner there will be the proverbial truck stopped and, in the other lane, the refrigerator that fell off the back of the truck. I need to be in full control of the space and to benefit from some reaction time. (Note that I don't go at 85 kph if there are blind corners!!!)

The correct position on the road, when descending at any speed, if you imagine is somewhere in the central third of the road.

The driver of the car behind me might get a little impatient, but the chances that the driver is enough of a maniac to actually run me over from behind are much lower than the chances of any of the above happening. As for honking, they should keep both hands on the steering wheel, but if they do, it will not impact my descending strategy. My safety is in my own hands and I will definitely let them go by when I feel that it is safe to do so.


*This is also the reason why, unless going through a turn, I keep moving my legs even if I'm not actually applying force to the pedals anymore. This conveys a stronger impression to the driver that I am actually moving rather fast.

[oz rider]

+1 to Grog. Cyclists have a right to use the road safely - no way would I pull in to the marbles on a descent to allow a car to pass me (possibly) too closely and destabilise me with its wash. Is my safety not worth 10 or even 30 seconds to someone in a car?

And how is a descending cyclist not sharing the road? We have drivers here who think 'sharing the road' means cyclists getting out of their way. It hasn't dawned on some that it might mean they have to respect bikes as equal road users. There is no road rule here saying I'm a second class citizen on a bike but superior in a car and thus nothing that supports driver convenience over cyclist convenience, let alone cyclist safety. I don't see them ranting that a garbage truck holds them up for 10 seconds - let alone the other 1000 cars in front of them.

Maybe you guys have really law-abiding drivers, but 88% of our offences are traffic offences, overwhelmingly committed in cars. Yet I don't hear our drivers ranting about cars running reds, not using indicators, speeding, drunk drivers ... and they kill over a thousand people a year. Why are cyclists held to a higher moral standard on such matters when cyclists are so benign? It doesn't make sense. The double standard is insidious.

[featuretile]

First of all, I did not 'honk' her, and I followed her all the way down the road. I am certainly not going to endanger a cyclist. I was just saying that I was surprised how it made me feel. And I imagine that people who don't cycle would potentially do something dangerous.

There are areas in the road that are 15% grade. She was going slower than the speed limit - riding her brakes. This is actually a private road and she does not live on it. She does hill repeats. This road is not even 2 lanes wide. The pull outs are so that cars can pass each other when going in the opposite direction. There is no room for 2 cars to pass each other without slowing down. And there is certainly no room for 2 cars and a bike. It is not very crowded, but I have had close calls with cars. That's why I don't ride on it. Since she wasn't going very fast, I think the safest thing for her to do would be to yield and let the car pass.

[Eden]

I think the safest thing for her to do would be to yield and let the car pass.

No, the safest thing for *her* to do was to not deviate from her line and continue to descend the hill..... it would have been more convenient for you for her to yield, but would only have made her "more safe" if you were posing a threat to her.....

We can debate all you want about what is polite or not polite, whether she should be doing hill repeats on a private road, but that is a *totally* different issue from the safety of the rider. She was perfectly *safe* being left alone to descend the hill without disturbance. I see in no way how it would have been more safe for her to be passed by a vehicle, unless the motorist in the vehicle was actively threatening her, driving in an unsafe manner or was experiencing a malfunction in their car, which I am nicely assuming you were not.

[GLC1968]

I live less than 2 miles from a road very similiar to the one you describe except that it's twice as steep (1000' in 1 mile) and it does have two lanes. I drive the road at least twice daily (sometimes more on those annoying weekends!) and I rarely see cyclists even though every local cyclist I've ever met knows of it. Occasionally I see someone trying to ascend the road and usually they are pulled off to the side and standing next to their bikes. It's > 18% grade in some spots! Until a few weeks ago, I'd never seen anyone descending it.

I was on my way home (it was daylight) and there was a cyclist turning down this road directly in front of me. I noted that he was dressed like he knew what he was doing and I had my fingers crossed that he wasn't a poser. He wasn't. He knew what he was doing. He took the lane the entire way down the hill and I found myself glad for him and cyclist/car relations that I was the person directly behind him. I was happy to follow at a safe distance and I had no intention of ever attempting to pass him. Of course, it helped that he was doing about the same speed that is safe for a car, so I did not feel like I was hindered anyway. Another driver might have wanted to pass him though, purely based on the fact that he was on a bike and not in a car. As soon as we got to the valley, he pulled right and let me pass and I gave him a little wave.

Anyway, my point is that I totally get being surprised by your own feeling of annoyance at another cyclist, but like others are trying to point out...your annoyance might have been misplaced in this situation. It does sound like she was doing the right thing for her own safety. I'm sure it didn't help already knowing that she wasn't the friendliest of sorts from your previous engagement. That probably would have colored my view of the situation had I been in your shoes.

[XMcShiftersonX]

+1 to Grog. Cyclists have a right to use the road safely - no way would I pull in to the marbles on a descent to allow a car to pass me (possibly) too closely and destabilise me with its wash. Is my safety not worth 10 or even 30 seconds to someone in a car?

And how is a descending cyclist not sharing the road? We have drivers here who think 'sharing the road' means cyclists getting out of their way. It hasn't dawned on some that it might mean they have to respect bikes as equal road users. There is no road rule here saying I'm a second class citizen on a bike but superior in a car and thus nothing that supports driver convenience over cyclist convenience, let alone cyclist safety. I don't see them ranting that a garbage truck holds them up for 10 seconds - let alone the other 1000 cars in front of them.

Maybe you guys have really law-abiding drivers, but 88% of our offences are traffic offences, overwhelmingly committed in cars. Yet I don't hear our drivers ranting about cars running reds, not using indicators, speeding, drunk drivers ... and they kill over a thousand people a year. Why are cyclists held to a higher moral standard on such matters when cyclists are so benign? It doesn't make sense. The double standard is insidious.

Agree 100%.

And as for her not being very "nice"... I hesitate to judge. Because #1 at that particular point she didn't know you were a cyclist (you were getting your mail), she didn't know your motives, and as it turns out you were an irritated resident wondering what the hell she was doing on "your" road when you didn't think she should be riding there (although I would hope your tone didn't come off that way). She could have been tired from doing her hill repeats, focused on what she was doing, or having a bad day and using exercise to blow off steam, and lastly, she was riding her bike. Whether she was turning around or not, did you expect she would stop and have a full on conversation with a stranger? Some people aren't comfortable talking with people they don't know, and aren't social butterflies, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm guessing that might be why she prefers to ride alone, rather than with a club.

But, you know, your feelings are your own. We know you're not going to act out against her because of your feelings, and that's the most important thing. I just think it would probably be more productive to not get worked up about something that isn't likely to change, since she legally has a right to ride on that road.

[smilingcat]

I'm sorry but just didn't have the stomach to read through all the good posts.

I will say this:

If the cyclist was going down the hill near or above the speed limit, don't complain.
If you had to exceed the speed limit to pass her don't complain.
It seems that the grade you are talking about and the sharp turns, I think she was going over 25MPH, and I would guess that 25MPH was the speed limit.

I have had cars who DEMANDED THAT THEY BE IN FRONT OF ME REGARDLESS OF HOW FAST I WAS COMING DOWN THE HILL. THIS INCLUDES NUMEROUS TIMES WHEN THE CAR ALMOST WENT OVER THE EMBANKMENT DOWN A 100 FOOT CLIFF. OR FISHED TAILED SO HARD THAT I THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO CRASH INTO A GUARD RAIL AND HEARD THEM SKIDDING AROUND A HAIRPIN TURN!! I WATCH THEM SKIDDING AROUND THE TURN.

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE IN A CAR DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BE IN FRONT OF A FAST BICYCLE!!

and +1 to all who thought this through carefully!
THANK YOU!! FOR LETTING ME VENT!!

[featuretile]

When I saw her at my mailbox, I was stopped and so was she. It was a different time, many weeks before the downhill drive behind her. I told her I was a cyclist and introduced myself. I thought she might be a neighbor and might like to ride together.

I won't belabor this anymore. If she is there and takes the road, there is nothing I can do but follow at a safe distance. I would not personally choose to do what she does. I'm surprised at how many people think that taking the road and making cars crawl down behind them is the better way to go. It doesn't help to make enemies of people in cars. I have taken the lane in situations that required it, but have pulled over as soon as I could find a safe place. I would not want to hit a rock or a crack in the road (or meet an oncoming car in this case) with a car right behind me, especially if the car was tailgating. I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

[Biciclista]

we were really hoping you'd understand just how seriously difficult it is for cyclists to "pull over to the side" on a steep and winding hill. It's a life or death thing... or at least serious injury. All of us know someone who DID get too far over into the shoulder and crashed and burned..

[oz rider]

I'm surprised at how many people think that taking the road and making cars crawl down behind them is the better way to go. It doesn't help to make enemies of people in cars.

It's safe and legal as well. Braking hard enough to stop on turnouts at the inclines you describe could well get you run over by some drivers who wouldn't notice the braking.

But more than that, I think some drivers take this sort of thing as a personal affront from a cyclist but not from a truck (self preservation?) We don't do it to make life difficult for cars; we're just trying to get down the hill safely and cars should learn to take their turn. What's unfair about that? They don't have some divine right to unimpeded progress. That said, I think I'm polite on the bike and sometimes even offer them training treats like a little wave or a nod or a smile if they are obviously polite or careful too.

[PamNY]

I thought that what I was saying would promote people being more courteous to each other (both car and bike). I did not expect that so many people would think that what she does is correct.

They didn't pay attention to what you actually said, or to the conditions you described. Let's hope they are more observant when biking.

I think only one person addressed the actual issue -- which was the safety of the cyclist pulling into a turnout. Most people assumed you wanted the cyclist to ride on the side of the road during a fast descent, which you didn't say at all.

I agree that being courteous when you can do so safely is a good idea. I do it all the time -- as a car driver, pedestrian, Xootr rider, and cyclist.

[Eden]

My question is pretty much the same as Veronica's ..... If the road is steep and she was descending was she doing at/near the speed limit? Did you only want to pass here because "I'm in a car and cars go faster than bikes".....

I find that descending I often go as fast or faster than cars *can*, especially on winding roads because I don't have to slow down as much to corner. I also take the lane because it is safer - see Grog's list!

In my view, your cyclist wasn't "hogging" the road - she was using it.... Sometimes it is just better to stay where you are. If someone has to wait a little bit, its not the end of the world...

I go through a section on my way to work that is a two lane road with a wide center barrier. The lane is narrow. Sometimes there is parking on the right, sometimes there is just sidewalk. There are curb bulbs (sidewalk that sticks out beyond the parking) at intersections. In the parking lane (if it is not full of cars) there are several large metal utility covers - one grated, one smooth, both rectangular and about 2'x3' - big). I'm not sure what the exact mileage is, but the whole distance I travel on the road before I turn left takes me 40 sec to a min at the most, depending on how frisky I feel and how much junk I've got on my back that morning.... I'm usually going about 17-20 mph - maybe a little slower near the end as it starts to gradually pitch up a little bit and I am preparing to turn left. The recommended speed is 25 for most of it (yellow signs) the limit is 30. I take the center of the lane. Even if there's a gap between parked cars I don't dive in there to let someone by - one its just safer to keep moving in a straight line, two - there could be something hazardous in there I can't see - like one of those slippery metal plates, three I could end up with not enough time to get back out or stop and crash into a parked car or curb if there's more than a single car behind me. I'm sure some people think I'm "hogging the road" - but guess what - I think my safety is more important that the several seconds they have to wait.... (and remember its not even the 40 secs that they are waiting, because I am moving....)

The cyclist on your road probably has a similarly complex thought out process to why she rides where she does and she doesn't do it to p*ss you off - she does it because it how she feels safest. Remember - unless they are limited access interstate highways... roads aren't just for cars - just because *you* wouldn't feel comfortable riding on a particular road, doesn't mean it's off limits to everyone and no one ever has the obligation to get out of your way if it means compromising their own safety...

[radacrider]

I agree with all who supported riding out in the lane. I do this pretty much on any road I am on.

• Makes me more visible because I am not blending with things along the side, like parked cars.
• I can actually see further and have a wider angle of view, because I do not have as much blind spot to right side
• It gives me a bit more safety margin should I need to move right more

On the matter of whether the cyclist should pull over, I would say no. I've been behind good and bad cyclists. I have also been behind slow farm tractors - not very many of them pull over. Right or wrong? I don't think there is a right or wrong. Each makes a choice, then we choose how to react.

I will also say that depending on where I am riding and the circumstances, I have been known to locate somewhere safe to pull-out (driveway, side street) to let cars go by. Why? I call it community building. Quite often, the first driver behind honks and waves thanks for my courtesy to them. I do it as a way of changing attitudes one person at a time about cyclists, not because I have to yield to cars.