Dog Behavior Question

[NbyNW]

I don't know which park you're going to, but perhaps if things don't change after raising this problem of unsupervised children running around the dog park, you might explore other off-leash areas near you.

When we lived in Seattle, we found a book called The Dog Lover's Companion to the Pacific Northwest: The Inside Scoop on Where to Take Your Dog

It has very useful reviews on dog parks in the area, as well as dog-friendly restaurants (usually you will have to sit outside, but sometimes that's better than leaving the puppy at home or in the car!).

Some parks are definitely busier and more popular than others. Might be helpful if you can find a place where Megatron can play without kids invading and being a hazard to themselves and others.

[tulip]

I do not have kids. I do have a dog. My dog does not do well with kids. He used to live with kids. But they taunted him and now he's fearful of and aggressive towards them. I cannot undo what kids did to him. But I can be absolutely sure to keep my dog away from kids.

Dogs should be properly trained to behave around humans, including (particularly) kids. If the dog is not trained to behave, it should not be allowed to be around people/kids/other dogs/cats...

Kids are unpredictable. Of course, your dog is perfect, but what if a kid decided to bite your dog, or poke him in the eye, or otherwise taunt him? That's what kids do. When that happens, the dog's natural reaction is to bite back. When a dog bites a kid, the dog owner get sued and the dog gets put down. Not to mention, the kid gets injured and develops a fear of dogs. But the kid is not your responsibility either way. The dog is your responsibility.

You cannot control the kids or the parents. But you can control your dog. Your dog is big, and therefore training should be even a bigger priority. Until your dog can behave appropriately around kids, you should keep him away from them.

[Pedal Wench]

I've had Mastiffs and even though I knew they were sweet and gentle, I knew that if a child was knocked down by them, it would be my fault if they were injured. I would have to ask parents, sometimes forcefully, to keep their children away if we were walking. Kids would come running up to pet, the dog would get all excited, and I would have to run away from these little kids. My dog, my responsibility.

[alimey]

Different situation in the UK - we don't have dog parks - you can let your dog off the leash in most places. But that means there are free range kids everywhere - and in London that means lots of kids scared of dogs. When my Vizsla was a puppy she would run up kids & if they ran, she chased. So I kept a good eye out for trouble of all kinds on the horizon (joggers, cyclists, horseriders, zimmer frames - you name it), and monitored her closely. I only intervened if necessary & worked a lot on voice control.

Given that you don't have much opportunity to let you dog off the leash (which I think is incredibly important), it does make sense to see if you can get the kids removed from the dog park. I would definitely work on training him not to mouth as he will keep this behaviour even when very excited & then it can get a bit painful (eg; am currently working on it during agility!!). However, the situation should get a lot better as he grows up. It seems that the larger the dog - the slower they mature. My Vizsla stopped chasing kids before she was 12 months - but it might be 24 months for a Dane. I must say, whilst some of the Danes I have met are prepared to play & rush around - the vast majority seem to prefer to be a bit more sedate. So hopefully the problem will resolve itself (as long as things aren't too manic in the dog park)

[Biciclista]

here are her words of wisdom

Well I agree with everyone that kids and dog parks don't go hand in hand. Stoo-pid parents for putting their kids at risk allowing this and stoo-pid dog people for putting up with it. I certainly wouldn't have a problem telling the parent to get the kid on a leash. One second of hesitation because you are worried about offending someone is that second in time that your dogs life, not to mention the kids, could be changed forever.

No one of course really touched on the real issues here. Number one; people think that dogs need to romp and play with other dogs. Do you see wolf packs interacting with strange wolves? No. We humans use dog parks like "we" think dogs need them. It's an excuse to be a lazy *** and not spend time with your dog interacting with them. I see more dog people chatting with each other and/or talking on the cell phone than paying attention.

If this dog owner thinks letting a 140 lb dog mouth human skin is OK because he's gentle, she's an idiot. In this day and age even if the dog did no more than mouth someone she's setting herself up for a law suit and her dog for impoundment. The dog is barely a juvenile and it sounds like he hasn't even entered into the difficult phase that all dogs go through like teenagers. OK so she doesn't like kids, fine, but that isn't going to help if the dog chases a kid, the kid falls down and breaks an arm. The parents still have a right to suit her. Just because something isn't right doesn't mean that someone can't or won't suit you. I believe my grandmother called that biting your nose off to spite your face.

[XMcShiftersonX]

No one of course really touched on the real issues here. Number one; people think that dogs need to romp and play with other dogs. Do you see wolf packs interacting with strange wolves? No. We humans use dog parks like "we" think dogs need them. It's an excuse to be a lazy *** and not spend time with your dog interacting with them. I see more dog people chatting with each other and/or talking on the cell phone than paying attention.

Perhaps mention to your friend that in addition to going to the dog park a couple times a week... We also take Megatron on a 1 1/2-2 hour walk every morning, an hour walk mid day, and a 1/2 hour walk at night?

When we don't take him to the dog park for awhile, it's noticeable that he's even more high energy than usual and gets into things he normally wouldn't. We've socialized him since day one of having him because we were told with big dogs it's important to make sure they're socially well adjusted so they don't have fear-aggression and hurt people and other animals violently.

[Biciclista]

Perhaps mention to your friend that in addition to going to the dog park a couple times a week... We also take Megatron on a 1 1/2-2 hour walk every morning, an hour walk mid day, and a 1/2 hour walk at night?

.

will do, yes.

[GLC1968]

Perhaps mention to your friend that in addition to going to the dog park a couple times a week... We also take Megatron on a 1 1/2-2 hour walk every morning, an hour walk mid day, and a 1/2 hour walk at night?

When we don't take him to the dog park for awhile, it's noticeable that he's even more high energy than usual and gets into things he normally wouldn't. We've socialized him since day one of having him because we were told with big dogs it's important to make sure they're socially well adjusted so they don't have fear-aggression and hurt people and other animals violently.

I think this is smart. I had a dog that was wonderfully socialized as a young dog because I worked very hard at it. Then I had to leave her with my mom for 3 months while I was sent out of state for work. When I got back, my dog had the beginings of dog-aggression that just escalated. My mom and dad walked her twice daily and played with her in the yard all the time. What they didn't do, was let her anywhere near any other dog. EVER. It was this behavior that taught her that dogs were a threat to the humans in her family/pack. It became a HUGE problem. She wouldn't allow any dog within 100 feet of me without turning into a viscious beast! Luckily, I'm strong and could control her physically...but man, it sucked. I am a FIRM believer that if dogs will be in contact with other dogs (like living in a city) then it is CRITICAL that they have supervised interaction with dogs so that they know how to act. Socialization is very important.

Now, I agree with what Mimi's friend said about people who take their dogs to dog parks and then ignore them while they are on the phone or gabbing with friends. That's not right either, but I certainly don't get that impression from the OP at all.

I also don't like kids and I'm a huge fan of dogs - particularly large ones. I totally want to meet Megatron now! Anyway, I agree that you should work on teaching him not to mouth humans as that's not very hard to do and probably a good idea anyway. I would also make sure that you are always paying attention when at the park (which it sounds like you are already) so that you can give the command to bring Megatron back to you if you see crazy children. We have one dog that won't start fights, but LOVES to insert is defective-hip-rear-end into the middle of them at the dog park. We have to be very viligent so that we can call him off when other dogs start to quibble or he'd get hurt in a hurry. Anyway, lastly, I would do as you suggest and nicely mention to people who's children are running around that it's a dangerous thing to do in a dog park and that while you know your dog is friendly, not all of them are... Frame it as your concern for their kids' safety and it might go over better.

Other than that, you are welcome to bring Megatron to our house to play with the 5 dogs we now regularly have tearing around our property. He'd have a blast! Honestly, no more need for dog parks is one of the best parts about living in the country!

(and our dogs are never left outside without supervision, so they are not the scary unleashed country dogs that chase bicyclists!)

[XMcShiftersonX]

The park where this has been an issue is Marymoor park. It's an amazing park, and I think Megatron's favorite because it's huge, has long grass for him to sprint through and chase other dogs around the park, there's trails that we can walk through and we go hiking on a regular basis so this is something he really enjoys, there's water from the river for him to drink, and there's always a ton of dogs eager to play with him regardless of his size!

Megatron was in a house with babies in children before we got him at 7 weeks, and he's always very curious and pleasant around them when they're not running. He'll walk up to them look them directly in the face and sniff them or lick them. Most of the time he's not too interested in adults at the park if there's a lot of dogs around for him to play with, but if we're out walking or anything he always wants to walk up to people and smell them.

When he plays with other dogs, like I said he's very gentle, he usually matches their energy level with his own. But they jump on each other, wrestle, mouth each other, etc. and that's something that when he was in obedience class and they had their play time was seen as okay as long as when a dog yelped, the other dog backed off, and Megatron always did and does.

Someone brought up what if a parent has a phobia and sees their kid being mouthed by a 140 pound dog... Well, I would hope someone with a phobia of dogs, even if it's just big dogs, wouldn't be found at the dog park. I definitely do not feel it is my problem in that situation.

Also, there are no signs regarding kids at this dog park that I'm aware of. I'm not going to put my dog on leash at the dog park if I see kids running around, but maybe I'll just be more on top of him if I see that so that he does not actually reach the child, just in case he knocks them over. Before I would just kind of wait to see what was going to happen, because the kid doesn't always get knocked over, usually just scared. I think I'll make it a bigger point to communicate, "look, my dog is a nice dog but it's not smart to run at the dog park," rather than not say anything at all.

[badger]

oh wow, he's GORGEOUS!!

When I had my dog, what bugged me was people assumed he was mean and vicious and would cross the street when we came closer. He was a mellow, 80lb mostly rottie with a docked tail, and it's amazing what a lack of tail does to an image of a dog. One woman even freaked out when the elevator door opened and we tried to get in. She was waving her hands and screaming, and my dog was like "what?"

Anyways, my guy was super gentle with every creature, including babies, but I always kept a very close eye on him, and always had him leashed JUST IN CASE. I remember this one time I had him off leash during a picnic, and he went straight to this toddler with a hotdog - took it right out of her hand!! luckily the child and her parents saw humour in it, but that was the only time I wasn't "careful" around children with him.

It's always good to have him trained enough to control him if he starts playing rough for the child, though. People are weird, and it's in your best interest to protect yourself and your dog should you encounter someone who's letigious-happy.

[colby]

We have a boxer-rottweiler mix (tail also docked), she weighs about 70 lbs. Of course, being a boxer and a rottweiler, she has a solid woof, is very muscular, and she loves to greet people. She has been known to knock some kids over (not intentionally), and alligator-snap in their direction if they poke where she doesn't want to be poked. She is another that won't put teeth on skin.

She knows kids are units to be protected, but isn't quite sure about how to interact with them, especially the smaller ones (the same ones she can knock over). We've used kids of friends as training for her, to teach her that kids are units that she needs to respond to, not just be aware of, and to try to reduce her jealousy of the attention that kids get. She also has a herding instinct that we have to try to turn off - sometimes if we're playing a chase game (like tag) with a kid, she'll start trying to herd the kid, nipping at their heels or clothes (never skin, but I'm sure to a parent it just looks like scary rottweiler/boxer eating my precious child). It doesn't matter how much exercise she gets, something turns it on and you have to be the one to turn it off. I think with a lot more practice, we could work it out and she'd learn that children are not to be herded in that way. :P

I think some kids end up at the dog park because, well, they love dogs. But, dogs are a two way street, and it's important for kids to learn how to deal with dogs as well. Maybe teach your dog to respond to a command that you can also teach the kids, and turn it into a learning exercise (rather than something negative). That would also give you something you could use to call him off if you think it's getting ahead of what the kid can handle. Or, if you can teach him to look to you before he sets off, you can give him the "okay" to run if you're confident (or confirm) the kid can handle it.

I looked up the rules for our dog park and I think they could use a section on human responsibilities, too. There's some general stuff, like "remain in control" and "kids under 16 must have a parent present," but not really enough on "how to be a responsible dog park user."

As an aside, that (loosely) reminds me of a sign at Cat Tales, a wild cat park that says: "Don't Run, You Look Like Food." http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...SEC1UXNu3mmuwA

Good on you for the long walks and staying attentive to him at the dog park, though. I do see a lot of humans doing the "hang around and chat while your dog misbehaves". My dog seems to want to smell everything and follow me more than play, so I haven't actually had to deal with a lot of dog park interaction.

[XMcShiftersonX]

@ Badger - Yes, the problems of people's misconceptions of a large dog or specific breed is a very real problem. I can't count the number of times people have screamed, ran, or said mean things about him because they just assumed a dog that big was mean. He's really quite the opposite as I've said... a big happy-go-lucky goof.

@GLC - If I'm ever in the area or you're ever up here we will definitely have to arrange something. I'm sure Megatron would be happy to meet everyone! We will continue to work on the mouthing issue. He's been attempting to mouth us since we first got him. Each time we tell him no firmly and either stop playing with him and walk away, or give him a toy to chew on rather than our hands, etc. This is what we were told in our obedience classes, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work because it's 15 months since we got him and he's still doing it! Does anyone have any other suggestions?

@Pam - We used to use a gentle leader when we were teaching Megatron not to pull and we had the same situations on a regular basis! I couldn't believe that people thought it was a muzzle. I think it actually heightened the fear people had about him being a mean dog because of his size. I was constantly explaining he's a really nice dog, he doesn't bite, it's so that he doesn't pull me.

@Colby - I LOVE that cat sign!!

@Tulip - I'm curious as to why you think that. I wanted to get an idea of how other people feel about this and what others' expectations are. I am listening to everything people have to say, but I'm also finding a balance between what I believe and what others believe. I don't think living in fear or making decisions over the small chance you may get sued is any way to live. It's something to keep in mind, and I am going to work with my dog on improving his behavior to uphold my responsibility (by working on his mouthing humans and trying to redirect him when there's children running around), but I still hold that there's another side (the children and their parents) that need to behave appropriately as well.

[PamNY]

Someone brought up what if a parent has a phobia and sees their kid being mouthed by a 140 pound dog... Well, I would hope someone with a phobia of dogs, even if it's just big dogs, wouldn't be found at the dog park. I definitely do not feel it is my problem in that situation.

Also, there are no signs regarding kids at this dog park that I'm aware of. I'm not going to put my dog on leash at the dog park if I see kids running around, but maybe I'll just be more on top of him if I see that so that he does not actually reach the child, just in case he knocks them over. Before I would just kind of wait to see what was going to happen, because the kid doesn't always get knocked over, usually just scared. I think I'll make it a bigger point to communicate, "look, my dog is a nice dog but it's not smart to run at the dog park," rather than not say anything at all.

Before I had rescue dogs in Manhattan, I would probably have said something like "do not feel it is my problem." Well -- guess what -- after years walking dogs in crowds, I believe it's ALL my problem. A dog-phobic person in a dog park does not come close to being the stupidest thing I've seen.

I used a Snoot Loop with one dog (similar to the Gentle Leader) and a lot of people think it's a muzzle. One time eight-year-old twins were on their knees kissing my dog when their father turned to me and said "Why do you have a muzzle on him?" I was speechless -- you thought it was a muzzle and your kids are all over my dog all the time?

I think your idea of encouraging kids not to run is a good one. Being proactive with children is something I do all the time. Based on what you've said here, though, I do worry about what might happen. Please keep in mind your gorgeous dog needs you to protect him!