Rollers and momentum

[DarcyInOregon]

If it works for you, then great, but I still just don't think it's necessary to know the grade of a hill as you're climbing it. I don't use a cadence meter either. I don't even have a computer on my bike anymore. So far, so good.

.

It works for you. Just saying though, that lots of cyclists use GPS bike computers with heart rate function, average speed function, grade and elevation function, and cadence function, and such bike computers are an effective training tool for them. I went on a group ride a few weeks ago and everyone in the lead pack had a GPS computer whereas the cyclists who took a half hour longer to do the 2 mile climb didn't have such computers. If such bike computers work for so many thousands and thousands of cyclists, perhaps it might work for Catrin too becasue she seems pretty serious about wanting to turn herself into a distance cyclist and is training hard to do so. Just because you don't use a computer doesn't mean that it would not be a good idea for Catrin to use one, particularly as she expressed her intent to travel to different areas to bike. She should probably get clipless pedals and cycling shoes first though, if she is prioritizing expenditures.

[tulip]

I'm sure Catrin can speak for herself, but I just wanted you to know that she does have clipless pedals and shoes, but she found that she's not ready to use them yet. One thing at a time, she's doing great and the hills will come, too.

[Eden]

I went on a group ride a few weeks ago and everyone in the lead pack had a GPS computer whereas the cyclists who took a half hour longer to do the 2 mile climb didn't have such computers.

Correlation does not imply causation.....

One could easily look at this from the other side too ... all the riders who are faster are using GPS computers, whereas the slower cyclists don't feel the need to have them.... The slower cyclists could be more casual riders who don't buy fancy toys, they could have less $$$ to spend and therefore not only do not have GPS, but have much heavier equipment, etc. There could be many reasons you see this relationship that have nothing to do with GPS computers making people faster.

[indysteel]

GPS units are less common in my neck of the woods. I only know of a handful of cyclists who use them. Maybe the hills around here are different enough that we just don't get as caught up in the facts and figures. I know the grade of specific hills--the notorious ones--but that's about it. And just so we're clear, I'm a good climber--at least when I train for it. To me, that's the key. I understand that you put a lot of stock in your GPS unit, but it's also possible that you got better at climbing because you practiced it. Just a thought.

Listen, I like bike bling as much as the next person, but I also fundamentally resist the notion that cyclists necessarily need to arm themselves with the best bikes, the best gear, or the best gadgets to have fun or to ride well. People were riding bikes long before computerized accessories came into the picture after all. I think there's enough room in the sport to make it as high tech or low tech as you want it to be (or your budget allows).

Catrin's a smart woman. I'm sure she can decide for herself after reading this thread.

[Crankin]

Eden, I was just going to say what you stated. Duh, the faster group got to the top because they were the faster group. Nothing to do with GPS.
I am not a fast rider either, but I am a good climber. I readily admit I hate gadgets and technology in general, but I do have bike computer, which is used mostly to see how far I've gone. Some rides are focused on speed, some I don't even look at my average. I quit wearing my HRM years ago, because I was just looking at it too much. Plus, it got interference with everything. My HR is higher than a lot of people's when I ride, yet I am not experiencing any difficulty. I know I am fit. PRE is enough for me.
Of course, I don't ride with traditional type groups, so hence, I feel no need to use any of this stuff. When I feel the need to compete with myself, I stick with the faster guys in my group, and the fact that I can hang on with them is good. Heck, we're all old guys, anyway, so I tend to compare myself to the couch potato who thinks they are washed up at my age.
Then I feel a lot better!

[Catrin]

This is an interesting conversation! I DO have SPD pedals and shoes - and after falling over a LOT when I tried to put them on my Trek it became apparent that it isn't time for them yet. When I am ready, I will try them again. Until then I've had no problem with my BMX pedals other than the fact they seem to be the vampires of pedal world and like to draw my blood

I know that clipping in will provide more power in the overall pedal stroke - but I've no problem picking a cadence and keeping it without them. For example on my ride tonight I was able to maintain a cadence of 87-89 pretty much the entire time. I know that I have to mash more, but am working to learn how to work with the gears and my knees are appreciating it.

I also have an inexpensive Cateye Strata Cadence computer on both my bikes. They tell me all I need to know for now. Eventually, when I can afford it, I will get the Garmin 705 but I suspect that will be a purchase for next year. This year I am focusing on my bike skills, getting a nice mileage base built up as I prepare for the October brevet, and gaining the confidence I need to go wherever Mr Wanderer wants to go (this seems to be my LHT's new name - it fits

I think that, at least now, knowing the grade of a hill would be down-right intimidating

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on all of this - and for your encouragement! It is truly helpful to read everyone's perspectives and experiences!

[Catrin]

Multi-Quoting is apparently my friend

.....I'm trying to imagine it and I think that coming fast into a steep hill I maybe downshift in 3 or 4 separate "sessions", several gears at a time, if that makes sense, before ending up on my smallest grinder gears. It comes with practice, judging at which speed you can use which gear, or rather - how much slowing down needs to generate how much downshifting.

I would think it helps to practice on the same hill or the same route, and try out several strategies. Downshifting too much is rarely a problem, you can just shift up a bit, but downshifting too little will have you struggling to shift again under pressure.

Oh, and long hills really are all about just grinding along, all momentum lost... Sing to yourself, stand a little, sit a little, practice reaching for your water bottle, don't worry about speed :-)

Today I experimented! I went to my "favorite" local park that has a very long, steep, and somewhat windy hill for a main road. I figured since I am doing this ride Saturday morning that I should practice with hill repeats so I could work on shifting.

I completely forgot about momentum as I lose it in the curves anyway - even while the fast boys and girls are blasting past me. That is fine, they can go around me Instead I worked between middle and granny front cogs to figure out where I needed to be in the rear to take full advantage of the front gears. I could tell a difference! I found myself going up the steepest bit of the hill at an entire 5mph, but with a cadence of 80 and my legs felt great! Ok, so there is something to this thing about not trying to power up in a harder gear - as has been my practice.

Like Grog and Becky said: don't coast down the hill--there's always an up on the other side of the down. Pedal (in harder gears) down and shift as you need to going up the other side. It will take practice.

Yup, and I found myself wanting to do the opposite - there is a part of me that wants to hit a harder gear at the bottom - probably because I want to feel that gear under my feet. Instead I put it in the granny gear and then into a hard gear in the rear so I could shift down as I needed to. This worked MUCH better than in the past when I tried to stay in the middle chain for too long.

You will develop a better feel for it with practice......I actually tend to rely less on momentum with some of these steeper hills and more on choosing a gear at the outset that will allow me to set a sustainable pace up the hill. I do not keep the same cadence on those hills that I use on the flats. I would blow up if I tried to do that. Rather, I get in a relatively easy gear, take a deep breath and then just pace myself up, susatining a good balance between aerobic and power outputs.

This is what I tried to do in the steepest parts of the hill tonight - I WANT to mash gears and just need to break this tendency of mine where long hills are concerned... though this would indeed be easier clipped in...

mantra for hill climbing- to the song of Frer Jacques
we are climbing, we are climbing,
yes we are, yes we are
This is not a real hill, this is not a real hill,
No it's not, no ti's not.

when in dobut/downshift until you can't shift anymore and remember, as long as you are maintaining enough momentum to move forward, you are in balance and all is good.................marni

I like the mantra! I will try and remember it Saturday

Something funny about my ride tonight. I have only gone one direction on THAT hill since something like March. I've only gone north to south on it, never the other direction because something about the downhill side scared me. So I've carefully avoided it for 4 months and carefully ignored that I was avoiding it. However, with hitting far more significant hills this weekend, it seemed time to finally "face my fear" of that particular stretch of road.

I decided to do it very first thing after warming my legs up a little. Rode to the southern end of the road, turned north, and started downhill.... First bit was fine, good - kept reminding myself that "I" am in control of how fast I go downhill. Got through steeper climbs and short yet fastish curvy downhill bits - then I realized that I was at the bottom!

You see - I had remembered a section of the road where the pavement was raised in the middle of the lane and then dipped on both sides - and I wasn't in very good control of my bike in March the last time I went down that hill at 27 mph - and I had NO business going that fast 4 months ago!

The end of the story is that after 3 repeats of that side of the hill - I never could figure out which section of road had me so scared - and I did not allow my bike to go that fast either. There is a lesson here about facing your fears, for sure. I am glad that I did - even if it turned out that there was nothing to be afraid of

[lph]

The end of the story is that after 3 repeats of that side of the hill - I never could figure out which section of road had me so scared - and I did not allow my bike to go that fast either. There is a lesson here about facing your fears, for sure. I am glad that I did - even if it turned out that there was nothing to be afraid of

I just wanted to say that it is so cool reading about your riding experiences, because you obviously think about things, decide to challenge yourself, and write well about it afterwards. Inspiring and fun

[Catrin]

J One thing for certain is that when you do start using the clipless pedals, you will be upset with yourself that you didn't use the pedals from the get-go. Falling over is just falling over, and at most there is some road rash and a bruise or two. Falling over is unlikely to result in death or permanent injury.

Oh, I am pretty sure I won't be upset with myself about not switching sooner when I finally do so

I had some pretty spectacular falls on those 3 days when I tried last time - even gave myself a small concussion and needed a new helmet I will try again when I am confident that my muscle memory is solid - right now I am breaking myself of a couple of bad habits - once I am sure that I've been successful and my muscle memory is "corrected" then I will try again. I learned a rather, umm, creative way to stop my bike and until that is changed clipping in is just not possible.

I just wanted to say that it is so cool reading about your riding experiences, because you obviously think about things, decide to challenge yourself, and write well about it afterwards. Inspiring and fun

Glad that it isn't boring - I don't mind laughing at myself

[DarcyInOregon]

Just one last comment on the GPS bike computer. It isn't bling for me and it is real annoying for someone to say it is. The cyclists I ride with all have one and they wouldn't have a decent training ride without one. I know it proved valuable to me when I was on a longer climb of 9% and my heart rate went to 163. My max heart rate is only 165-170, and I am a person who had open heart surgery to correct a defective heart valve when I was a baby, so I do not want my cardio heart rate to get that close to my max heart rate because I don't want that kind of stress on my heart. The 163 felt no different to me than a 150 heart rate, but because it showed up on my bike computer I was able to get to a flat spot, stop the bike, drink Cytomax for the electrolytes and wait for my heart rate to drop. I knew that this heart rate was abnormal for me, and thanks to my bike computer I did not have a serious medical problem. I understand that such computers are not important to everyone, but I do training rides versus recreational rides because I am always focused on a new cycling goal and such computers are an effective training tool for me and for the cyclists I know, and no, it isn't about speed for me, but distance. Just because other cyclists in this forum don't use one, it doesn't mean that other cyclists shouldn't contemplate getting one or be called a name for owning one.

Catrin, regarding the clipless pedals, for distance cycling the clipless pedals provide an efficiency of stroke that helps conserve energy and allows the cyclist to go more miles. The most likely outcome by using flat pedals, outside of the hill scenario, is you will reach a mile limit and you won't be able to get past it because of the body fatigue. I've known some cyclists who can get up to a metric using the flat pedals, then the next few days they are recovering from torn leg muscles and extreme body fatigue, and they are not able to reach the level of completing a century. Typically, every cyclist I've known who was new to clipless pedals clipped in and out a few times to make sure the cleats were positioned properly, then went off on a 20-mile ride, focusing carefully on the unclipping and clipping at each stop. By the end of one 20-mile ride the clipless pedals felt natural. If you are falling over, and it isn't due to a medical problem, then try again. One thing for certain is that when you do start using the clipless pedals, you will be upset with yourself that you didn't use the pedals from the get-go. Falling over is just falling over, and at most there is some road rash and a bruise or two. Falling over is unlikely to result in death or permanent injury.

[OakLeaf]

So you have a medical need for a HRM. HRMs are still a good training tool for people who don't have a medical need, and good ones can be had for under $100.

That's got nothing to do with whether Catrin needs a GPS or a bubble inclinometer.

I'm a gadget w****, I copped to it in the other thread. I have GPS. I love it. I do not need it. I am not a better climber because of it. I'm a better climber because I run, because I have decent shifting technique, and because I'm lighter than a lot of people I ride with. I AM much more confident about riding with my GPS, because without it I can get lost in a paper bag. That's all.

[Eden]

+1 Oak

I just got a powermeter - which I do think has made a difference in the way I ride. I shift more, I don't go into the hills too hot just to get my hr up to the zone I'm supposed to be training in, I don't slack in between climbs. Overall I think I'm steadier with my efforts.

I chose to get an Edge 500 because it did more than the Powertap head for the same or maybe even a bit less $$ and I have to admit I love it.... a little data overload, but oh boy its fun. I even like being able to see the gradient of the hills. Mostly because I'm sometimes surprised by what isn't actually a hill (though it looks like it) and by how steep something really is (when it doesn't seem steep at all...) But - knowing how steep something is doesn't make any difference in how I climb it. It's all about that steady power......

[trista]

One thing for certain is that when you do start using the clipless pedals, you will be upset with yourself that you didn't use the pedals from the get-go.

This is a broad generalization that really is not true for a lot of people. And I don't think it's a fair statement, especially to a relatively new cyclist. I may be new, but I've done enough cycling to tell you that not everyone loves clipless. Catrin is smart to wait until she has more experience on the bike to try going clipless again.

I go back and forth on the clipless.... right now I'm riding free and I LOVE IT. I don't struggle on hills, I maintain a steady, brisk cadence, and I'm not sore after a ride. I ride about 20 miles at a time and my goal is speed and heart rate above 80% of my MHR (I'm not a distance rider). When I ride free, my pace is faster and my workout is better.

I just don't agree at all with the statement above, and I respect Catrin for knowing what is working for her right now.

[Owlie]

Re: clipless pedals.
I got them a little over a month ago. I see the the advantages of using clipless. There are definitely times that I benefit from being attached to the bike. There are plenty of other times, though, that I could take it or leave it. Hills are one of them. I'm not going to be a "good" climber because I'm the wrong build, and I live in an area with exactly one hill.
Clipless can help, but it's not essential. It's not for everyone.
Going clipless from the start would have scared me off the bike, and I think many could say the same. I think we can all agree that riding, regardless of whether/how your feet are attached to the pedals, is better than not riding.

Gadgets: I like toys. I don't want to put toys on my bike. If I buy a GPS, the sole reason would be because half the time I couldn't find my way out of a wet paper bag. I have a bike computer, mostly for distance. It doesn't have a cadence function. While I like looking at numbers, I look at them for fun--I like to see how far and how fast I went, and note that I feel better after having done that than I did a month ago. I don't want to obsess over them. It takes all the fun out of it. I don't think it makes me less of a cyclist.

Catrin, not naming your bike Magellan was probably a good idea!