Isoflavones - Menopause - help!

[tiva]

Soy is no safer, and probably much riskier, than bioidentical hormones. Other plant hormones aren't any safer either. In fact, they're all made from essentially the same plants (soy or wild yam).

The problem with herbal supplements is that the FDA has essentially no regulatory power over them. This means you have no idea what you're getting, how strong it might be, and how contaminated it is by heavy metals, etc. Most herbal supplements are now made in China, in factories with zero regulation, grown in very contaminated soils. (Today's New York Times has a brief article on heavy metal contamination in herbal supplements: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/he.../26herbal.html )

Bioidentical hormones, on the other hand, ARE regulated. They are made from plants, but modified to be exactly the same as our body's own hormones. They don't contain heavy metal contamination. Plus, you can get them in a transdermal (ie, patch) form, which is much easier on your body. You can take far lower doses in a transdermal form, because it's not being broken down in your stomach.

I completely respect each individual woman's decision not to take supplemental hormones. But if you ARE going to take supplemental hormones, I think it's a lot safer to get a regulated product that doesn't contain heavy metals, and does contain what the package says it contains.

Vivelle dot and climara are both bioidentical estradiol, made from yams, available in a wide range of dosages, and much safer than soy or whatever stuff is on the counter at the health food store. (And they can do wonders for night sweats and hot flashes, even at extremely low doses). (Full disclosure: I'm a professor who researchs estrogen and endocrine disruption, and last month, I went on an extremely low dose of transdermal estradiol, because menopausal sleeplessness was driving me nuts.)

[mudmucker]

Here is another option. It may not be an agreeable one nor is it homeopathic. But if you're not sleeping.....

(I'll say this realizing you are suffering from 'regular' perimenopausal symptoms).

Women who have estrogen induced cancers such as uterine cancer can't take estrogen to help with the instant surgically induced menopause caused by a full hysterectomy, ovaries included. Hot flashes and other symptoms occur abruptly and intensely. Even bioidenticals may not be advised.

In some instances, very low dose anti-depressants can be taken, and are specifically used to prevent hot flashes although generally when women can't take estrogen. The anti-depressant at low doses addresses the vasodialation of the blood vessels that causes the hot flashes. Again, the anti-depressant isn't being administered as an anti-depressant for it's typical intended use because of the low dose.

[kelownagirl]

Wow, you sound like you've got knowledge galore. Here's a question for you. I was on the pill for most of my life and only stopped last fall when we figured out I was probably menopausal. The hot flashes started when I went off the pill. What is the difference between the hormones in the pill and the ones given for menopause? If was I never worried about taking the pill, why should I be worried about taking hormone replacement?

Thanks

Soy is no safer, and probably much riskier, than bioidentical hormones. Other plant hormones aren't any safer either. In fact, they're all made from essentially the same plants (soy or wild yam).

The problem with herbal supplements is that the FDA has essentially no regulatory power over them. This means you have no idea what you're getting, how strong it might be, and how contaminated it is by heavy metals, etc. Most herbal supplements are now made in China, in factories with zero regulation, grown in very contaminated soils. (Today's New York Times has a brief article on heavy metal contamination in herbal supplements: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/he.../26herbal.html )

Bioidentical hormones, on the other hand, ARE regulated. They are made from plants, but modified to be exactly the same as our body's own hormones. They don't contain heavy metal contamination. Plus, you can get them in a transdermal (ie, patch) form, which is much easier on your body. You can take far lower doses in a transdermal form, because it's not being broken down in your stomach.

I completely respect each individual woman's decision not to take supplemental hormones. But if you ARE going to take supplemental hormones, I think it's a lot safer to get a regulated product that doesn't contain heavy metals, and does contain what the package says it contains.

Vivelle dot and climara are both bioidentical estradiol, made from yams, available in a wide range of dosages, and much safer than soy or whatever stuff is on the counter at the health food store. (And they can do wonders for night sweats and hot flashes, even at extremely low doses). (Full disclosure: I'm a professor who researchs estrogen and endocrine disruption, and last month, I went on an extremely low dose of transdermal estradiol, because menopausal sleeplessness was driving me nuts.)

[kelownagirl]

Here is another option. It may not be an agreeable one nor is it homeopathic. But if you're not sleeping.....

(I'll say this realizing you are suffering from 'regular' perimenopausal symptoms).

Women who have estrogen induced cancers such as uterine cancer can't take estrogen to help with the instant surgically induced menopause caused by a full hysterectomy, ovaries included. Hot flashes and other symptoms occur abruptly and intensely. Even bioidenticals may not be advised.

In some instances, very low dose anti-depressants can be taken, and are specifically used to prevent hot flashes although generally when women can't take estrogen. The anti-depressant at low doses addresses the vasodialation of the blood vessels that causes the hot flashes. Again, the anti-depressant isn't being administered as an anti-depressant for it's typical intended use because of the low dose.

That's an interesting idea - thanks! I'll check into that as well.

[tiva]

Wow, you sound like you've got knowledge galore.

Thanks, but not really. I did recently write a book on the first synthetic hormone replacement therapy and what it tells us about other synthetic estrogens (TOXIC BODIES, Yale University Press, 2010).

Here's a question for you. I was on the pill for most of my life and only stopped last fall when we figured out I was probably menopausal. The hot flashes started when I went off the pill. What is the difference between the hormones in the pill and the ones given for menopause?

Lots of different hormone formulations are available for contraception, but most of them are MUCH higher dose than the estrogens give for menopausal symptoms. And none of them are bioidentical.

If was I never worried about taking the pill, why should I be worried about taking hormone replacement?
Thanks

Timing means a lot for hormones. Low doses at certain times (ie, during fetal development) can cause more problems than high doses at other times of your life. That said, for many women, bioidentical, transdermal hormone replacement is probably no riskier than the contraceptive pill. If you weren't worried about the pill, and if night sweats are really disturbing your sleep, it's worth talking with your health care provider about the potential risks and benefits, for your particular situation, with hormonal and nonhormonal approaches. One size doesn't fit all (ie, the WHI 2002 study that radically reduced the # of women taking HRT applies to some, but certainly not all, women!)

[mudmucker]

I just went to get some bodywork done and my holistic person told me about maca. It has some amazing nutritional benefits for one. If you look it up you'll see a lot of talk on its legendary effects on enhancing libido etc. But there is a another whole segment about this root discussing how it contains compounds that normalize hormones (without it being a bioidentical), and reduces symptoms of menopause such as hot flashes and sleeplessness.

[Dogmama]

I just went to get some bodywork done and my holistic person told me about maca. It has some amazing nutritional benefits for one. If you look it up you'll see a lot of talk on its legendary effects on enhancing libido etc. But there is a another whole segment about this root discussing how it contains compounds that normalize hormones (without it being a bioidentical), and reduces symptoms of menopause such as hot flashes and sleeplessness.

I just looked it up on consumerlab.com and they didn't say anything about maca having an affect on menopausal symptoms. They did say that it purportedly is good for male sexual desire but the studies are weak and did not have a control group. But maybe it's "off label" - like so many of our other drugs..

As for herbs vs. FDA regulated drugs - I do understand that unregulated herbs can contain nasty compounds. But I don't think that the FDA is the seal of approval either. Some drugs are later recalled because certain problems are later "found." For over 10 years, I worked in a medical University setting where we received "drug money" - grants from pharmaceutical companies to test their new compounds. We loved drug money. They would give us a ton of money - lots more than we really needed for the research. After we did the work & wrote the report, we got to keep the rest of the money & use it for totally unrestricted purposes (as long as we followed basic University guidelines.) So, there was a strong desire to keep in the good graces of the pharmaceutical companies. How does that happen? Maybe if you tend to write good reports about their drugs? Just a possibility.

It all gives me a hot flash.

Back to the OP's concerns. I have tried bioidenticals and always eventually have to come off of them. Right now I'm using Black Cohosh for flashes and valarian to help sleep. I just started the cohosh, so I can't report but the valarian does help sleep. I also used to work with Andrew Weil who would tell you that if you purchase your herbs from well known companies, your chances of getting what you pay for are better. Also, I subscribe to Consumerlab.com where they actually test supplements to make sure they contain the stated ingredients and nothing else. They operate like consumer reports & are supported by subscribers on-line, not advertisers.

Sleep clothing - if you can find nightgowns made from bamboo material, they are heavenly. They don't trap heat & will absorb light perspiration. I know LLBean sometimes sells nightgowns made from bamboo.

Finally, try to NOT live in Arizona. I'm not looking forward to another summer.

[Dogmama]

In some instances, very low dose anti-depressants can be taken, and are specifically used to prevent hot flashes although generally when women can't take estrogen. The anti-depressant at low doses addresses the vasodialation of the blood vessels that causes the hot flashes. Again, the anti-depressant isn't being administered as an anti-depressant for it's typical intended use because of the low dose.

The antidepressant typically needs to be an SNRI, e.g., Effexor, Pristiq or Cymbalta. Be sure that you also check out the withdrawal problems of these pills. Can be nasty. OTOH, they help mood swings & general menopausal crankiness. If you decide to withdraw, you need to do so slowly. I was on one of them & they kicked up my IBS like crazy. BUT, I did feel calmer. In the end, I had to taper off. It was weird - light flashes, feeling like I had the flu and the rebound hot flashes were awful.

[AMP]

I have severe hot flashes and night sweats. My DH told me last week that he had to come to bed with a snorkel and mask! Alcohol consumption made absolutely no difference as neither did caffeine or chocolat. I had hot flashes before and after I quit all three. I also am self-employed and have to pay an enormous deductable for any drug. (My insurance kicks in about $3!) I'm leary of any drug anyway. So. I read about how to handle hot flashes and one of the methods that actually worked was...breathing. When you get the first glimmer of a hot flash, slowly breathe in to the count of five, hold, lungs full; and slowly breathe out to the count of five and hold, lungs empty.
The sensation is one of calming control. Best of luck. Also, this too shall pass.

[kelownagirl]

Gonna try the breathing thing - sounds cool.

And I think I'll see my doctor again. Last time I talked with her, the night sweats weren't that bad.

Thanks for all the discussion. It's all very interesting!

[Dogmama]

I saw an acupuncturist today who specializes in menopausal stuff. It's going to take a few sessions, so I'll try to bump this if anybody is interested.

One thing though - for the past few days I've had crushing fatigue. No idea why - maybe hot flashing at night & not sleeping, maybe a low grade virus, who knows. I mentioned that to my needle-pusher & she said that is part of what acupuncture addresses when they address menopause. It's been several hours and I DO feel better. Placebo effect - maybe. At this point, I don't care. I barely made it through teaching spinning last night - did a lot of off-the-bike instruction.

Who said old age isn't for sissies?

[kelownagirl]

No kidding. Fatigue - yeah. I fall asleep ok but waking up every hour to sweat is really cutting into my REM sleep I think. I just need to get a few good nights sleep between now and my race on Sunday.... Argh.

I did acupuncture for my shins and it didn't help much. But keep us posted, I'm always willing to try it again.

I saw an acupuncturist today who specializes in menopausal stuff. It's going to take a few sessions, so I'll try to bump this if anybody is interested.

One thing though - for the past few days I've had crushing fatigue. No idea why - maybe hot flashing at night & not sleeping, maybe a low grade virus, who knows. I mentioned that to my needle-pusher & she said that is part of what acupuncture addresses when they address menopause. It's been several hours and I DO feel better. Placebo effect - maybe. At this point, I don't care. I barely made it through teaching spinning last night - did a lot of off-the-bike instruction.

Who said old age isn't for sissies?

[navybeetle]

I am 46, have been on the pill for 22 years off and on but mostly on. Lately my period skips a month and I do a pregnancy test just in case and that comes out negative. A couple of months my period came a week early but was very light or seemed like break through bleeding which can be normal on the pill. This month it came a week and a half early and has lasted 10 days. Feel it more than usual in my abdomen and have little short cramps that are like a needle pricking me. Also have more abdominal discomfort than usual. To add to that I have had night sweats these past couple of days. Anybody go through this at my age? Thanks for any input, I do not want to totally rely on my doctor's opinion which I have not gotten yet

[OakLeaf]

I had very irregular periods for at least two years before they finally stopped. That's normal for perimenopause. Want a leftover pregnancy test?

[navybeetle]

I probably have an extra pregtest in the bathroom! Thanks though. Just reading this thread alone kind of confirms to me that I am in pre-menopause. I have trouble sleeping, sweats at night sometimes, irregular bleeding patterns while on the pill and very lethargic at times, especially when my period kicks in. I will be glad when this is over