Barefoot Running

[KnottedYet]

The Mizunos and PIs are far more built up than what I remember calling "flats" from my track days.

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

So, it seems running in standard shoes is now more like running in high heels than I realized.

Oh, why didn't I go into biomechanical engineering? (then *I* could have been the one making turkeys run on little treadmills... I could've given them little iPods, too!) (and I could have made a gazillion dollars designing reasonable shoes)

[Becky]

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

Yes, as far as I can tell from scanning the shelves at my LRS. I keep watching for something even flatter but, for now, these will have to do.

[KnottedYet]

http://www.finishline.com/store/cata...LAID=341775370

This is more what I remember training flats (as opposed to "spikes") to be like. Asics Tigers.
When Nikes came on the scene, we went apesh*t over the first pair we saw. They were sooooo different with those wedged heels. My asst coach had the first pair I ever saw, and he called them "nyks". So we all called them that for quite a while. I'm pretty sure the wedge heel on my first pair of Nikes was lower than the Mizuno and PI heels. It was maybe double the thickness of the Tiger.

[GLC1968]

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

It certainly sounds like it from the information referenced in 'Born to Run'. Have you read that yet, Knott? Interesting stuff (and a great story).


Another thing to consider going from VFF's to barefoot is the foot sole toughness. Many people get blisters on the bottoms of their toes because they don't realize they are pushing off with them (and in a VFF, it doesn't matter). Try that barefoot and you'll trash your skin! My limitation with running barefoot now is the soles of my feet, not my calves or ankles or muscles at all. I don't run in my VFF's at all (though maybe I should).

[KnottedYet]

I haven't read it. I'm pretty focussed in on the research papers, not so much on the semi-fictionalized stuff. Eventually I'd like to read it, if only because it's the first exposure so many people (who didn't run track in school, or who didn't run before the latest fad in shoes) have had to the concept of barefoot running.

When I get through the huge backlog of research stuff...
(I'm getting quite a kick out of all the papers from 1905-1910 about running barefoot. Truly there is nothing new under the sun!)

[OakLeaf]

Okay, okay, I've drifted this thread far enough.

As far as shoes: if I plan to continue to run shod, which I will for the time being, the message is "patience, grasshopper." As much as this bunion freaks me out, it's mainly because I have a name for it now. It's been building for years, since I was wearing much smaller shoes than the ones I have now, and it is not going to turn in to the Bunion that Ate New York between now and May 16 if I put another 300-400 miles on the shoes I have now.

But back to barefoot.

I get this feeling like there's a pebble between my first and second toes. It gets to be pretty uncomfortable. Anyone else get that? Any idea whether that's form, structure or conditioning?

[KnottedYet]

I get this feeling like there's a pebble between my first and second toes. It gets to be pretty uncomfortable. Anyone else get that? Any idea whether that's form, structure or conditioning?

Is it in the ball of your foot?

Google "dropped metatarsal head". Didn't I write up an exercise program somewhere on TE for that? (in fact, wasn't it for *you*?)

Anyway, folks feel the "pebble" on hard surfaces and when the muscles that are supporting the met arch fatigue and the met head starts dropping.

[Blueberry]

Is it in the ball of your foot?

Google "dropped metatarsal head". Didn't I write up an exercise program somewhere on TE for that? (in fact, wasn't it for *you*?)

Anyway, folks feel the "pebble" on hard surfaces and when the muscles that are supporting the met arch fatigue and the met head starts dropping.

Here's the linkey: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showp...2&postcount=40

I saved it last time you posted it. This is *most definitely* my problem. Quick question: I assume the thumbs are towards the outside of the foot on the top during the stretch?

[OakLeaf]

Yep, been doing the exercises. Thanks. Also strengthening in yoga and short barefoot runs and walks. If conditioning is what it is, then I'll continue building slowly. Just wasn't sure.

(I confess, as I did confess before, that I slacked off the exercises when it was just too cold to take my socks off even for a few minutes, except for in the shower, literally. Yep, even in Florida, my toes are on the edge of blue most of December, January and February. But I'd already gotten back to the exercises now that it's warmed up a little.)

I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as the ball of my foot; it's more toward the toes. But maybe it just feels that way because my second met head is so far forward from the first. That sounds right, anyway.

[KnottedYet]

Quick question: I assume the thumbs are towards the outside of the foot on the top during the stretch?

Yup. The thumbs end up kinda on to the outsides on top and the fingertips are kinda in the middle on the bottom. Almost like you are pushing upward on the dropped met head with your fingertips while pushing downward on the sides of the foot with your thumbs.

I always think of cleaning Dungeness crab when I do this... y'know after you've taken the top shell off and you are breaking the crab into left and right halves. Mmmmmm, crab.....

[KnottedYet]

Oooh, this paper is a lot of fun! http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/kris...t_al_2009b.pdf

You can order it through a journal service ($$) if you have trouble getting the pdf above. Footwear Science vol 1 No 2 June 2009, 81-94

A fun stat mentioned in passing in that paper: 88% of healthy women in a USA study were wearing shoes smaller than their feet! (Frey, 1993)

[GLC1968]

I haven't read it. I'm pretty focussed in on the research papers, not so much on the semi-fictionalized stuff. Eventually I'd like to read it, if only because it's the first exposure so many people (who didn't run track in school, or who didn't run before the latest fad in shoes) have had to the concept of barefoot running.

When I get through the huge backlog of research stuff...
(I'm getting quite a kick out of all the papers from 1905-1910 about running barefoot. Truly there is nothing new under the sun!)

Actually, I don't think there is anything fictional about it. The stories are true. Whether or not all the research is solid is not something I can speak to, of course.

And his historial annecdotes about Nike are fun to read particularly living in Nike-central here.

The whole book is fun once you get the hang of the authors style (which is a bit disjointed).

[OakLeaf]

Oooh, this paper is a lot of fun! http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/kris...t_al_2009b.pdf

You can order it through a journal service ($$) if you have trouble getting the pdf above. Footwear Science vol 1 No 2 June 2009, 81-94

A fun stat mentioned in passing in that paper: 88% of healthy women in a USA study were wearing shoes smaller than their feet! (Frey, 1993)

.pdf came through fine for me.

That statistic is kind of "no duh" to me. Women's non-athletic shoes are made to stay on your feet by compressing them all around. Shoes that aren't too small, fall right off. Even when I was wearing athletic shoes that were two sizes smaller than the ones I wear now (which are just barely on the edge of being wide enough), I had to buy my dress and casual shoes a size or two smaller than that. Now that I'm not working, and living in pretty casual areas, it just isn't worth it to me to buy new shoes for the two or three times a year I need them, so whenever I do need to wear them, I feel like Cinderella's step-sisters. "Do I cut off my heels, or my toes?"

I wonder what the percentage would be if they limited the query to athletic shoes.

[KnottedYet]

I wonder what the percentage would be if they limited the query to athletic shoes.

I'd bet it would only be a bit lower for the general population wearing athletic shoes, maybe 50%, judging from what I see around me on the bus of women wearing fashionable athletic shoes. (big toes trying to leap out of the top of shoes, pinky toes lapping over the edge of running shoes)

Of course, there's a self-selection bias in an athlete and their athletic shoe-only sample, because people who run would most likely be fit better just because of the nature of the activity.

I would imagine some athletes (like cyclists) would have higher proportions of too-small shoes than others (like runners).

The Frey study was just around the time Birkenstocks were very fashionable among teens here in the PNW. I sometimes wonder how much that fashion blip influenced the shoe designs that are popular now. (young growing feet that got to spread out during the end of adolescence resisted being jammed into tight shoes in later decades?)

I'm already seeing a wave of injuries from MBT and MBT rip-off shoes, just like there was a wave from the Nike shock and Z-coil shoes. Folks who get injured by shoes leave the sample, but low-grade irritation gets accepted as part of the fashion price.

[Becky]

I'm already seeing a wave of injuries from MBT and MBT rip-off shoes, just like there was a wave from the Nike shock and Z-coil shoes.

What sorts of injuries are you seeing? I'm fascinated by these shoes, in a "OMG-why-would-someone-buy-those?" sort of way...