Barefoot Running

[KnottedYet]

now that I'm satisfied that the whole mileage-limit-replacement thing is basically a scam.

Did you see this research paper? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801775

From a cushion standpoint, there is no need to replace shoes as the cushioning loses its sproinginess. (this is related to those "turkeys running on treadmills" to study leg stiffness: the body adjusts to get its optimal suspension) However, from a distortion standpoint it is very important to replace shoes if they become distorted from wear to the point they are interfering with posture or efficiency. (the heel that is almost completely worn off on the outside, the ripped lateral fabric, the pulled lace-holes, the burst gel bladder, etc.)

Side note: my favorite running sandals are now more than 10 years old, and I just did a half marathon in them this weekend. They have not distorted, and they were never crazy cushiony to begin with so there hasn't been a real loss of sproinginess. (they never had it) No-one can convince me that I need to replace them, and I won't until I feel they have distorted and are messing with my efficiency. I did get them resoled because I wore the old sole off. My second-favorite running sandals are a different style and only 8 years old and unfortunately do have to be replaced (I just ordered new ones). They got a little funky in the process of being worked on and resoled, and I just can't run comfortably in them now.

[colby]

Did you see this research paper? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801775

From a cushion standpoint, there is no need to replace shoes as the cushioning loses its sproinginess. (this is related to those "turkeys running on treadmills" to study leg stiffness: the body adjusts to get its optimal suspension) However, from a distortion standpoint it is very important to replace shoes if they become distorted from wear to the point they are interfering with posture or efficiency. (the heel that is almost completely worn off on the outside, the ripped lateral fabric, the pulled lace-holes, the burst gel bladder, etc.)

Side note: my favorite running sandals are now more than 10 years old, and I just did a half marathon in them this weekend. They have not distorted, and they were never crazy cushiony to begin with so there hasn't been a real loss of sproinginess. (they never had it) No-one can convince me that I need to replace them, and I won't until I feel they have distorted and are messing with my efficiency. I did get them resoled because I wore the old sole off. My second-favorite running sandals are a different style and only 8 years old and unfortunately do have to be replaced (I just ordered new ones). They got a little funky in the process of being worked on and resoled, and I just can't run comfortably in them now.

Really interesting. I find that my shoes wear, seem to feel perfect, and then I start getting blisters, and THAT is when they need to be replaced. I am always sad, because they feel just right for a while before I replace them, then I have to start over. Maybe I should start with less cushioned shoes. There are so few shoes that come in the width I need that I don't have a huge amount of choices, but it didn't occur to me that why they feel so great after I wear them for a long time is that I've mashed them down a bit. I definitely run way more than the "recommended" miles in them. I only replace shoes when the blisters start forming in places they don't normally form.

I am in Boston for a vacation/convention and someone stopped me in the gym and asked about my VFFs today - he said he'd been running around the area and had seen a few people wearing them today, asked if I ran in mine, was surprised when I said "up to about 15 miles". Yeah, you can run in them! And I sent him down the street to try them on.

Speaking of... we coincidentally walked past City Sports earlier (they have ALL the styles of Five Fingers for men and women!) and my husband decided to try a pair of KSO Treks on and loved them - he said they felt like glove moccasins for his toes. He is a big heel striker, though, so it's a pretty big adjustment for him to walk in them. I had to teach him a series of stretches for his calves, hamstrings, ankles, and toes/top of foot. I don't know if he'll make it the weekend in them (not sure about his calf/ankle strength), but he seems pretty happy. He is experiencing the same thing I did with his pinky toe feeling almost sore as it's being pulled back to its proper barefoot location (rather than mashed under the next toe). Spreading the love! I am jealous of his KSO Treks, they don't make them small enough for me yet. They look just like shoes - for anyone concerned about being called out about wearing VFFs, the KSO Treks would be a great shoe for daily wear.

Being in VFFs is definitely different than being barefoot for walking or running, and I do love being purely barefoot with free free toes. It would take some significant re-adjustment to run barefoot after running in VFFs - you can still get away with stuff you can't barefoot (sharp rocks, loose gravel, glass, icky things, concrete) and going the next step would still change your posture. I think the jump from shoe to VFF is a bigger jump muscle-wise than VFF to barefoot, but it's definitely not the same.

[KnottedYet]

Colby - if I could just stretch my metaphor to the breaking point, you might be one of those folks who is most efficient running on the "hard packed wet sand" of life. It sounds like your shoes break down until the cushion meets your needs and they feel fabulous, then they continue to break down to the point the function is getting interfered with (the shoe is distorted in some way) and you begin getting blisters.

Have you tried running in sandals? One of the reasons I love my sandals so much is that width is such a non-issue. I run in Chaco Z1 mostly. www.chacousa.com They come in widths, and I run best in women's wide or men's regular. They might be too cushy for you still, but perhaps worth trying on a pair next time you see them? (the side view of the sandal's medial and lateral counters makes it look like they have a built-up heel, but I measured with a caliper at the actual heel cup and at the ball of the foot and they are only about 1 mm different)

[OakLeaf]

From a cushion standpoint, there is no need to replace shoes as the cushioning loses its sproinginess.... However, from a distortion standpoint it is very important to replace shoes if they become distorted from wear to the point they are interfering with posture or efficiency. (the heel that is almost completely worn off on the outside, the ripped lateral fabric, the pulled lace-holes, the burst gel bladder, etc.)

Yeah, that's where I'm at. Both pairs have around 400 miles on them, so they'll be hitting the 500-mile mark before race day, but the only visible wear on them is the squashed-down soles. I'm not noticing that they ride any different than they ever did.

Interesting that in the study you linked to, there was enough wear after 200 miles for a measurable change in gait. I always found it annoying that my soles squash visibly after only 100-150 miles. I'm not that heavy, nor that heavy-footed.

I wonder if I can get away with racing flats... I just saw a review of the new Mizuno Wave Universe 3, and they have a SUPER square toe-box. Wonder how the heel width is. I may have to try a pair of those on. Shoe salespeople run when they see me coming.

[Becky]

I wonder if I can get away with racing flats... I just saw a review of the new Mizuno Wave Universe 3, and they have a SUPER square toe-box. Wonder how the heel width is. I may have to try a pair of those on. Shoe salespeople run when they see me coming.

It's worth a try, right? What shoes are you running in now? As with going barefoot or VFF, do so gradually to avoid injury. For me, moving to training flats (Pearl Izumi Streaks and PI Peak XCs) has been a good move, but it took me all winter to do it.

[KnottedYet]

The Mizunos and PIs are far more built up than what I remember calling "flats" from my track days.

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

So, it seems running in standard shoes is now more like running in high heels than I realized.

Oh, why didn't I go into biomechanical engineering? (then *I* could have been the one making turkeys run on little treadmills... I could've given them little iPods, too!) (and I could have made a gazillion dollars designing reasonable shoes)

[Becky]

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

Yes, as far as I can tell from scanning the shelves at my LRS. I keep watching for something even flatter but, for now, these will have to do.

[KnottedYet]

http://www.finishline.com/store/cata...LAID=341775370

This is more what I remember training flats (as opposed to "spikes") to be like. Asics Tigers.
When Nikes came on the scene, we went apesh*t over the first pair we saw. They were sooooo different with those wedged heels. My asst coach had the first pair I ever saw, and he called them "nyks". So we all called them that for quite a while. I'm pretty sure the wedge heel on my first pair of Nikes was lower than the Mizuno and PI heels. It was maybe double the thickness of the Tiger.

[GLC1968]

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

It certainly sounds like it from the information referenced in 'Born to Run'. Have you read that yet, Knott? Interesting stuff (and a great story).


Another thing to consider going from VFF's to barefoot is the foot sole toughness. Many people get blisters on the bottoms of their toes because they don't realize they are pushing off with them (and in a VFF, it doesn't matter). Try that barefoot and you'll trash your skin! My limitation with running barefoot now is the soles of my feet, not my calves or ankles or muscles at all. I don't run in my VFF's at all (though maybe I should).

[KnottedYet]

I haven't read it. I'm pretty focussed in on the research papers, not so much on the semi-fictionalized stuff. Eventually I'd like to read it, if only because it's the first exposure so many people (who didn't run track in school, or who didn't run before the latest fad in shoes) have had to the concept of barefoot running.

When I get through the huge backlog of research stuff...
(I'm getting quite a kick out of all the papers from 1905-1910 about running barefoot. Truly there is nothing new under the sun!)

[OakLeaf]

Okay, okay, I've drifted this thread far enough.

As far as shoes: if I plan to continue to run shod, which I will for the time being, the message is "patience, grasshopper." As much as this bunion freaks me out, it's mainly because I have a name for it now. It's been building for years, since I was wearing much smaller shoes than the ones I have now, and it is not going to turn in to the Bunion that Ate New York between now and May 16 if I put another 300-400 miles on the shoes I have now.

But back to barefoot.

I get this feeling like there's a pebble between my first and second toes. It gets to be pretty uncomfortable. Anyone else get that? Any idea whether that's form, structure or conditioning?

[GLC1968]

I haven't read it. I'm pretty focussed in on the research papers, not so much on the semi-fictionalized stuff. Eventually I'd like to read it, if only because it's the first exposure so many people (who didn't run track in school, or who didn't run before the latest fad in shoes) have had to the concept of barefoot running.

When I get through the huge backlog of research stuff...
(I'm getting quite a kick out of all the papers from 1905-1910 about running barefoot. Truly there is nothing new under the sun!)

Actually, I don't think there is anything fictional about it. The stories are true. Whether or not all the research is solid is not something I can speak to, of course.

And his historial annecdotes about Nike are fun to read particularly living in Nike-central here.

The whole book is fun once you get the hang of the authors style (which is a bit disjointed).