Salsa Fargo - sad news

[Catrin]

42cm Surly Long Haul Truckers have some big fans among the petite women.

$1,095. ($600 less than the Fargo) Bar end shifters, sturdy, mtb tires or smooth, can be fully loaded front and back with racks and panniers.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showt...t=surly+review for a review of two TEers playing around with a 42 cm LHT.

ETA: comparing the requirements your fitter gave you and the geometry of the LHT, you could ride either the 42 or the 46. Don't be put off by the seat tube angle, because the touring geometry is going to set your saddle to peddle relationship differently it's almost irrelevant, you'll know how it works for your KOPS when you ride each.

He didn't think the Surly Long Haul Trucker would work for me either...though he didn't say exactly why other than it was based on the geometry chart. I need to ask about that. More for me to check out

The fitter did suggest the Trek 520Touring bike, one of the Cannondale Touring bikes. I know he said the Long Haul Trucker wouldn't work for me, but I won't rule out until I find out why I have looked at the Surly Cross before - how does it do for long rides?

What does KOPS mean?

[KnottedYet]

He didn't think the Surly Long Haul Trucker would work for me either...though he didn't say exactly why other than it was based on the geometry chart. I need to ask about that. More for me to check out

The fitter did suggest the Trek 520Touring bike, one of the Cannondale Touring bikes. I know he said the Long Haul Trucker wouldn't work for me, but I won't rule out until I find out why I have looked at the Surly Cross before - how does it do for long rides?

What does KOPS mean?

Perhaps he was looking at a different chart for a different bike?

The LHT in size 42cm has a 49.26cm top tube (he says you need a 50cm)
and a 70.3 cm stand over (your inseam is 78cm)

The LHT in size 46cm has a 50.83 cm top tube, and a 72.38 stand over.

I find it fascinating that he dismissed the fairly independent Surly product out of hand (even though it has the wheels/tires of the Fargo which you like so much) yet recommends bikes of the same purpose and geometry from the larger corporations (and without the wheels/tires you said you like).

The Cross Check is excellent for long rides, though it cannot be loaded as heavily as the LHT and it is a bit more responsive (aka "squirrelly") than the LHT. Also, because of the higher bottom bracket of cyclocross geometry, the 42cm CC fits more like a 46cm LHT.

KOPS is "knee over pedal spindle". This is obliquely what he was referring to when he discussed seat tube angles with you. When your pedals are horizontal (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock) and the balls of your feet are centered on the pedal, a plumb bob dropped off the leading edge of your knee should line up at or slightly behind the pedal spindle. In other words (just like when you squat properly) your knee should not be hanging out in front of your toes. KOPS is dependent on such a HUGE variety of factors that it is pretty silly to dismiss a bike simply over seat tube angle.

You won't know if a bike is "right" for you until you've ridden it. Seriously, sizing and geometry charts only give you a guideline, you really need to ride all the different bikes. If you are interested in Surly, find an independent shop who carries them and take some test rides! More rides, more better! Lots of bike love!

ETA: here's the LHT info: http://surlybikes.com/bikes/long_haul_trucker_complete/ click the "geometry" tab and look at the chart for the 26 inch wheel bikes.

ETA #2: my CC is also gloss black, but with red accents. Mmmmm, tasty...

ETA #3: there are enough of us on TE who are trained fitters that you will be able to get lots of good info, so don't be shy about asking questions, ANY questions!

[HillSlugger]

I don't know about all the ramifications of his conclusions in real life, but don't be afraid of a stem under 80mm. I had a 65/30 degree on my race bike and I have no problems with handling.

[KnottedYet]

I don't know about all the ramifications of his conclusions in real life, but don't be afraid of a stem under 80mm. I had a 65/30 degree on my race bike and I have no problems with handling.

I've got two bikes with stems in the nefarious 8 cm neighborhood. No problems here, either.
To each his own, I guess.

Really, riding the bikes tells you more than anything else ever would. Ride every bike that interests or intrigues you, no matter how far-fetched! Keep notes as you go, and you will discover that you learn quite a lot about your own preferences over a fairly short period of time.

Have fun!

[Catrin]

Thanks to all of your good advice! KnottedYet - you are right, the specs for the Long Haul Trucker does seem to be well within his criteria - perhaps he was looking at the wrong chart. I do want to give her a shot, I just have to find a dealer in the region who has one.

My LBS can get bikes that they aren't dealers for (outside of Specialized - for some reason they won't deal with them) - but there are no returns for those bikes.

I like the detailed info he gave me on why the Fargo won't fit - I did have to laugh when I realized the only two suggestions he had as alternatives were to bikes they carry.

I am sure that I will have more questions - thanks to everyone!

[Blueberry]

Slightly OT - Does anyone know of Surly has changed the geometry on their Cross Checks in the last 8 years? I bought a used one, and I cannot get my knee in the right place (we've tried). However, it doesn't seem to match anything on the current geometry page.

FWIW I've done 85 miles on it. It does well for long rides. I also have a Trek 520 that I love!

[andtckrtoo]

Another CrossCheck lover here - although the LHT sounds like it would be a better bet for you. My only beef with my Surly is the handlebars which are simply unsuited for me and not bad over all. I'm going to have my LBS switch out the bars for me and finally wrap them in pink (I have the tape - just haven't put it on yet). I've ridden mine many long distances and I love it for commuting and light touring. I have a compact double on mine and a triple on my Cannondale. I like the triple because of the smaller gear changes, but my Surly has greater ranges (I had them add cogs) so I actually find the compact double better for steeper climbs. I really don't notice that much of a difference in weight between my aluminum Cannondale and my steel Surly, except when the Surly is fully loaded for my commute, of course, and even then it's totally maneuverable. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE my Surly.

Here's mine on my commute home on day when I decided to take the long way.

[KnottedYet]

My only beef with my Surly is the handlebars which are simply unsuited for me and not bad over all.

Oh, yeah, I switched out the bars on my Surly CC pretty darn quick! My shoulders are not as wide as a man's who rides the same bike size! Actually, I switched them out again to a pair of narrow moustache bars. They are perfect for me for commuting. If/when I change my Kona Smoke into an xtracycle hauling goddess, I will give her the same moustache bars.

Even with the bars set too low and too wide, I knew it was true love when I test rode the Surly CC. The second test ride a week later (I made myself wait) was a damm fabulous second date. After that, we simply had to be together.

[Bike Chick]

Catrin,

We must be the same size. You are exactly where I was about 9 months ago. I had my eye on a Salsa Casseroll but when I went to order it at the LBS found out that it was too big AND my current road bike that I had been riding for 5 years was also too big. Thus the beginning of my search and the reason I have a custom Luna being painted right now to replace my road bike. I am still looking for a commuter/trail bike and without going custom on it as well, I only found two in my price range that were small enough and only one that was steel.

Check out Gary Fisher cyclecross bikes (they are all steel with an ETT of 50.9) and the Specialized cyclecross bikes (they have a 50 TT).

PM me and I can share further. I feel your pain!

[iamsquib]

Hi Catlin I read your post and what you described well I would think about it for a second. Fitting a bike like the Fargo is a different matter altogether than fitting a road bike. The Fargo is like the bike version on an old Toyota land cruiser. And there are some very big differences in the way one sets up a drop bar 29er vs a road bike (google it to see pictures). For one a drop bar 29er's are not designed to ridden on the hoods but in the drops giving you better control in the dirt. So the bar sits up MUCH higher than on a road bike (in relation to the saddle and top tube) Which brings them closer to the rider. On any touring bike and especially one designed with off road as its primary purpose you don't want to be as far forward on it as you would a road bike. The riding position is almost up right the reason it pretty simple riding a long way and on rough roads will kill your lower back, shoulders and wrists in a race tuck position. Secondly the head angle is 70 degrees on the Fargo which is wicked shallow most road bikes its the the range of 72-74 ( and mountain bikes its 72-71) which means the bars are closer to the rider the shallower the angle. Also a 120mm stem for smaller riders is well I'm not sure what to call it but retarded comes to mind. Long stems like that are are rarely used on bikes out side of those belonging to huge men where the largest frame is still to small. OR for people who bought a frame that was too small to begin with.
As for the seat post the 73 degree angle really isn't that big of a deal, your talking a few millimeters difference depending on how long the seat tube and seat post are and for small riders it isn't that much. Like wise it can be over come with a zero off set seat post like a Thomson Elite and I would strongly recommend a Brooks saddle for any touring bike which are not only super comfortable they have really long seat rails and will more than likely out last the frame I've been riding the same saddle for almost 15 years. I have ridden the Fargo and the bike has a very long wheel base which makes it stable but slow to turn Fargo comes with a 90mm stem stock so a 80mm stem isn't going to tighten up the steering that much you'd notice and might even be better if you hit single track.
As for stand over height well 1 cm is not a huge difference a good touring shoe (one you can walk in will make up that difference.) Because you want a shoe you can walk in with out trashing the cleats on a tour trust me you'll end up walking a lot on tour.
SO I guess my point is Bike Shop employees make commission and will always try to up sell you from an $1800 bike to the $4000 dollar custom job because it fattens their pay check. And the fitting guy was fitting you for a road bike not a off road 29er touring bike or even a touring bike. Most shops don't really have any idea about touring because the focus in the industry for the last 20 years has been all about performance. Touring isn't about going fast its about going a very long way comfortably. So touring is a small niche thing and the shops that focus on it tend to be run by old grumpy men with white beards who drink a lot.
As for a new bike even a custom one is going to take a bit of adjusting to make it feel right.
Just saying as a guy who turn wrenches for a living and hates it when I hear people get bad advice on a bike fit. Or told no to something they want. I mean if the Fargo is the horse that sings to you don't be swayed by some 12 an hour bike shop snob. Go find a shop run by an old guy with a white beard and sorta smells like axle grease and Jack Daniels he'll have it in stock and go ride it and see how it FEELS because all the fancy measuring won't tell you how a bike feels and you'll be able to tell right away if its going to work for you or not. So there is no need for sad days. Hope my 2 cents will help you out.

[Biciclista]

um, iamsquib, welcome to TE. The post to which you are responding is a year old!

[MartianDestiny]

I'll add to this. My road bike has a 60mm stem on it. It's certainly quick handling, but that's just as much because of the steep head tube angle and race-y geometry as stem length.

The only time I crashed it was because I UNDER-steered in a corner...

Sounds like the Salsa has other problems for you though

Edited to add:
The fitter that sold me that road bike (unridden) and told me he could fit it without adversely affecting ride quality with a 60mm stem is a Senior Instructor for Serotta Cycling Institute (he probably taught that guy you talked to everything he knows...). He was right; I LOVE my bike. (though he probably would have had a different answer/opinion had I been looking at a bike with more relaxed geometry, etc.)

[Ritamarie]

I have looked at the Surly Cross before - how does it do for long rides?

Catrin,

I've done a 100 mile ride on my Cross Check. I chose it over my road bike for that ride because there were some portions of the ride on the rail trail. It was great. I was lucky that there was a Surly dealer an hour from me and I was able to try one. Instant bike love.

My Cross Check is like the bike equivalent of an old pair of shoes. It's solid, it's stable, it doesn't get blown about by the wind. I feel safe on it. I had it built up special since I wanted flat bars and a triple on this bike. I would highly recommend the triple for what you are doing. I initially bought this as an all-rounder, a relatively inexpensive bike that I wouldn't mind getting dirty; that I could ride on the rail trail, commute on, put fat winter tires on, do a little touring. I'm even thinking of getting some fat knobbies for it and using it as a mountain bike! If I was to do it over, I would sink another few hundred dollars into it and choose better/lighter components, just because I'm spending more time on it than I thought I would! It weighs in at about 25 lbs now without bottle cages etc. (I think the Fargo you were looking at weighs in at about 27 lbs stripped.)

I am just a centimeter or two longer than you in the inseam and I have a 50cm Cross Check frame.

Meet "Ethel".... (Yeah she's a bit muddy in the pic, but that's her job!)

[Catrin]

Catrin,

I've done a 100 mile ride on my Cross Check. I chose it over my road bike for that ride because there were some portions of the ride on the rail trail. It was great. I was lucky that there was a Surly dealer an hour from me and I was able to try one. Instant bike love.

My Cross Check is like the bike equivalent of an old pair of shoes. It's solid, it's stable, it doesn't get blown about by the wind. I feel safe on it. I had it built up special since I wanted flat bars and a triple on this bike. I would highly recommend the triple for what you are doing. I initially bought this as an all-rounder, a relatively inexpensive bike that I wouldn't mind getting dirty; that I could ride on the rail trail, commute on, put fat winter tires on, do a little touring. I'm even thinking of getting some fat knobbies for it and using it as a mountain bike! If I was to do it over, I would sink another few hundred dollars into it and choose better/lighter components, just because I'm spending more time on it than I thought I would! It weighs in at about 25 lbs now without bottle cages etc. (I think the Fargo you were looking at weighs in at about 27 lbs stripped.)

I am just a centimeter or two longer than you in the inseam and I have a 50cm Cross Check frame.

Meet "Ethel".... (Yeah she's a bit muddy in the pic, but that's her job!)

Wow, she is pretty - and so is the LHT! I checked out the specs for the LHT and I have to wonder what the fitter was actually looking at. I've sent him an email to see if there was something else about the geometry. From what the specs say it looks like the LFT will certainly fit me.

The Cross Check stem angle is very different from the LHT. The LHT has a stem angle of 75, which my Trek 7.6 has and it is perfect. What impact would the stem angle of 84 have?

I just heard from my fitter, and he admitted that he was looking at the chart wrong for the LHT and said it looked like a perfect match for me. My LBS even has a 42cm Surly steel frame on display right now that I can look at