Dismissed in business conversations?

[Mr. Bloom]

Ginny, every situation is different...but some get places through schmoozing (career polititians could never get a real job), others through technical competance, and others through a combination of the two.

Resolve the path that you want to succeed on. If you choose the technical path, you will likely always be experiencing what you note above, but that doesn't mean you can't have a career but rather that you may be happiest in a different situation.

Just my humble opinion...and I'm not a schmoozer but I am in an executive role in a company with a few hundred employees.

[ginny]

Thanks, Silver! I was hoping you would weigh in on this.

[tulip]

It seems to me that if you are a partner (whatever that means in your particular situation) on this new venture, you should be involved in the conversations. The fact that you sat with the wives tells me that you CHOSE to sit with the wives.

I tell myself constantly that I cannot change what other people do. But I can change my own actions. I'm finding that it's a good guide as I go through life.

[ny biker]

It sounds like it would help to get to know them better. Try inviting each one to lunch individually. That would be an opportunity to get to know each other's backgrounds as well as discuss your ideas for the project, etc.

[TsPoet]

As a woman in the science field (M.S. Toxicology, PhD,Pharmacology/Toxicology and I work at Pacific Northwest Nat'l Labs), I strongly suspect your treatment by the 3 men on the new project is because you are a "technician" not because you are a woman. When you get your PhD you'll find things are very different. Even as a postdoc people will start asking for you input, if only to teach you something about what you know/don't know.
I also suspect the way you are treated is because they know that you think the "company has questionable practices" - believe me, they know. They probably think you are wrong/ignorant and that's why you feel that way.
You are a junior technician working toward a PhD. There is a very definite "class" distinction in the sciences - and class is defined by letters behind your name and years of experience. You've got neither. I suspect your attitude is known and your inexperience combined with that attitude have people's backs up.
That said, I have some amazing stories about being very badly treated by the "old guard", but most of those guys are gone now. (A man once announced that a meeting couldn't begin until the "token woman" showed up - I was sitting right there and he was referring to another woman on the team, I don't know if it's more offensive to be thought of as the token woman, or not even worthy of that!)

[Cataboo]

Ginny,

I work in sciences as well, and I really did my best to stay out of the gossip or the drama that went on in my last lab... and that worked against me in a lot of ways - because I was seen as uncooperative or unhelpful or just an isolated member of the lab... It meant that less people asked me for help or to collaborate, even though I'd've been fully willing to help - so being happy with just being left alone is not always the best strategy.

While it's nice to pretend that science is a place where you don't have to schmooze or interact with too many people, the reality is that especially in this current economic climate, collaboration and making contacts is really really important. You're in an industry type setting, so it might not mean as much to you now - but when you're trying to get grant funding, which labs you can say are going to help you with certain aspects of a project is critical, especially when it's a big name of an established lab. However many papers you can get your name on, is also critical. Now, if you have no problem publishing on your own and churning out papers on your own or getting grants on your own... then that's great and that will speak for itself... HOwever, it is getting harder to get published lately and it's harder to get grants lately, so every little bit helps.

so in a similar type situation to what happened at dinner the other night, you could have asked your boyfriend to switch seats with you so that you could "talk shop" too or something like that.

[shootingstar]

Ginny, every situation is different...but some get places through schmoozing (career polititians could never get a real job), others through technical competance, and others through a combination of the two.

Resolve the path that you want to succeed on. If you choose the technical path, you will likely always be experiencing what you note above, but that doesn't mean you can't have a career but rather that you may be happiest in a different situation.

Just my humble opinion...and I'm not a schmoozer but I am in an executive role in a company with a few hundred employees.

Over the years, I had chats with guys (engineering background) and more individually (you will find out alot more) where they had to make a decision like what Mr. Silver described above: there is a point later in career path, where one ends up having to decide to be technically a "star" and remain on that path or move into the management side, which is what these guys are doing, when they are talking about setting up a business/major project/venture.

Meanwhile while you take time to make that decision (which will take several years), one does have to network across any organization that you work for, to be a "known" face in the firm, to understand the work you do/value you provide to the firm and to be on cross-functional teams (which these guys may refuse to acknowlege right now), be participating at those team meetings, etc.

Perhaps just maintaining a respectful working relationship with your project manager is best for now, while seek elsewhere in the firm for other guys that you can network, sit down have a coffee and talk about work, etc.

I have worked in several male dominant organizations where I found it best to know informally several different guys across an organization of different rank (junior to senior management) and develop those working relationships, find out about the meetings, etc.

Meanwhile publish, deliver talks,...and leave the firm soon.

Are you willing to take courses in business strategy development, marketing, project management, contracts negotiation to complement your scientific technical training?

[Grog]

Quit worrying about being called a *****. Do not deliberately act like one, sure, but don't worry about it, even if it happens.

I also suggest more assertive behaviour. And, by the way, it's never too late to change seat.

Good luck!

[Melalvai]

This is a "great" learning experience that sucks when you are experiencing it but you can (try to) comfort yourself with that you are learning a lesson now while you are in your PhD program. The more you learn now, the better off you will be later.

At least, that is what I keep telling myself. And I counter that with "If it doesn't kill me or put me in an institution first." or "better off doesn't mean much when there's so, so much else that is wrong." (The pessimistic side has subsided since I accepted the "real" job offer. And while I'm at it, can I discourage you from doing a postdoc unless you really really know what you are after? In fact I hope you have a really good idea of what you're going for with the PhD, and that it isn't a tenure track faculty position, because there are way more people who are very well qualified than there are jobs.)

Sorry, that was a digression. Anyway, this is an interesting conversation.

I agree, it sounds like this is a bad environment, and if you can extricate yourself sooner than later it would be best. Before you fall victim to the politics that are playing out. Trust me, it sucks to get kicked out of a lab.

[ginny]

Mel,

Um... I am guessing you have spent some time in academia / post docs? I totally agree. That's why I opted for the MS the first time around.

Nope, what I am really hoping is that we get lots of SBIR and STTR money and maybe some private money and make a new and cool company doing what I love with people I really like. I am SO stoked about the prospect of being involved in starting this new company. I am ever so stoked to have a long-term job prospect that I am creating for myself in a relatively small town. I hope we are successful (my advisor has a track record of being successful), and I hope that when we eventaully sell, the big company that buys us leaves us here. I know this sounds like a pipe-dream, but he (my advisor) did it once, so let's hope it works a second time.

Yes, I like the idea of making money on the prospect, but I REALLY like the idea of creating a niche for myself outside of academia and outside of a government lab. Mel, add that to your list of places not to go - except the CDC, they are pretty good. In the mean time, I suppose I have to learn how to be a grown up at some point (have I mentioned I'm 35!!!????)

[tangentgirl]

Nope, what I am really hoping is that we get lots of SBIR and STTR money and maybe some private money and make a new and cool company doing what I love with people I really like. I am SO stoked about the prospect of being involved in starting this new company.

Look at this as practice. If you are eventually starting your own business and asking people for money, then knowing how to jump into these conversations and not be dismissed will be a useful tool for you. Polish it now (without getting pulled into the gossip), and it will be much easier later.

[tc1]

I used to dis all of this networking stuff, too. I work in a field that used to be all male, and is still mostly male. I finally figured out, that you have to talk to these guys. Stand next to them whenever they form their little groups, and ask questions. Eventually the hardest part will be getting them to shut up and let you talk.

I gotta tell ya, if you thought as I did, that working with more women would be easier, you are wrong. We have more women in our workgroup now, and they have created so much strife and discontent through drama, that I am completely disillusioned and depressed. The latest is one woman screamed swear words at one of the men, then she complained to HR and lied about it, and HR is completely taking her side. Give me the old boys any day, they at least have the grace to apologize when they say something really crass and stupid.