Minarets in Switzerland

[shootingstar]

I wanted to jump in on this one, because there was recently a veil debate here in Norway too. Actually it's an ongoing issue, and I've been back and forth a million times.

There are girls in my son's class who never covered their hair before, but are doing so now as 11, 12-year olds. They're probably not forced to, but I'm guessing they are just told that this is how proper Muslim girls dress. To me it's not really a strong religious statement, but I do object a bit to the reverse, that it should be in any way improper for a 11-year old to have her hair visible. (btw I think the current norm here is that it's ok to cover your hair for religious reasons in class, but face veils are not ok, since they hinder communication.) And I heartily dislike the growing trend that these girls are not allowed to wear ordinary gym clothes for phys.ed., shower with the other girls, or go to overnight events. It seems to me that they are slowly being taught to feel shameful or insecure about perfectly normal events in any Norwegian teenagers life.

On the other hand there are plenty of Muslim women who proclaim that it's their own free choice to wear a veil to show respect for Islam. A policewoman recently applied to be allowed to wear a hair veil with her uniform. Which seems to be a harmless request, but it caused massive debate.

It's hard to draw the line between showing respect for other religions, but not accepting misogyny and indoctrination done in the name of that religion. It would be a lot easier if one could just forbid all religious expression one didn't like, but that is a bit too reminiscent of states we don't like to compare ourselves with.

And sometimes I can understand the traditionalists that move here and are shocked by how young Western women dress.

Of course what complicates all of this, is the 'freedom' that parents want to have to raise their children according to their interpretation of values. Seen as a private manner until child is hurt or child ventures into the public realm.

The face veil for some fundamentalist Muslim women, is probably the most complicated matter in terms of clothing cover-up, in the public sphere. I have no problem with headcoverings and neck-to-foot coverup IF the woman wants it and she feels greater freedom to be judged by her character vs. her body. It can be (not always) an expression of feminism that's very real and assertive.

It actually continues to amaze me, a non-religious person, to see some working women who wear tops that show overtly decolletage. What for? I went to a job interview months ago, where 3 women interviewed me. One of them wore a low-scooped t-shirt with a neckline that showed half of her decolletage. I don't get this--at all. She was an info. tech. manager so maybe that's an expression of her self-confidence in what used to be a traditionally male-dominant industry. I don't know. Do men who are fit, walk around in muscle t-shirts in office to show their biceps?

--From a woman who wears her cycling jerseys looser even if she's decently fit/slim. Who hasn't worn any low-backed sundresses over last 15 yrs.
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I become cautious or even suspicious whenever I see repeatedly tv and photo images in some countries, where it's crowds of MEN protesting or just hanging out en masse, in a friendly way having coffee or chatting up on the streets. Where ARE the women in those tv/photo images I ask myself,....doing all the childcare/housework at home or grocery shopping? Cloistered at home?

The issue of just building a mosque in Switzerland...is now overblown by the voting Swiss. They weren't voting on use of the call to prayer. It was just building more mosques.

To address to papaver, who felt uncomfortable stared at by some men who looked other than Christian/white, I would ask yourself if you would feel the same wandering into a predominantly black /AFro-American neighbourhood.

It's a perception of feeling threatened, suddenly looking highly visible because you are "different".

I am willing to bet papaver you would have been safe 99% of the time you were there at that time of the day. After all, you are in Brussels (or whatever city in Belgium)

[papaver]

It's not staring, it's really verbally harassing. It has happened numerous times and not only to me, but to my colleagues as well. And I'm not exactly dressed in high heels and a short skirt either.

I would gladly avoid that neighborhood but that's just not possible. It's unfortunate that extremism leads to extremism.

And I know they were voting against the minarets and not to the call to prayer... that is in MY country, not in Switzerland.

Trust me, I don't mind staring, I don't mind being the only white on the block. I really don't care, but I do care when a bunch of men form a circle around me and start threatening me because I don't wear a veil.

[lph]

I would gladly avoid that neighborhood but that's just not possible. It's unfortunate that extremism leads to extremism.

It is very unfortunate I know that if I had experienced this sort of thing often I would be a lot more sceptical myself.

I would like to be able to say that this kind of harassment is an example of the worst part of male-dominated culture in some Muslim countries, and not an expression of Islam in itself. But it niggles at me that Islam does seem to be fundamentally less tolerant of female rights. I would like to be proved wrong. There are certainly Muslim countries and many many Muslims that are tolerant, modern and pro equal rights.

Regards the call to prayer: somebody mentioned somewhere that this is generally not allowed in Europe, I presume purely for disturbance reasons. I don't know if this is correct but fwiw, I have never heard a call to prayer outdoors anywhere except in Muslim countries.

Don't we have any Muslim women here who could give us a note from their point of view? That would be really interesting.