religious wars; bike lanes removed and repainted

[Crankin]

Shooting Star, I think that quite a few of the "illegal" repainters were Jewish. But they are not Hasids, not even Orthodox, like the bridge person you mentioned.
There are many branches of Judaism, and there are divisions (schisms?) in each of these branches. There is a huge difference in observance and lifestyle between someone who is Modern Orthodox, like the person Shooting Star mentioned, and the Hasids. The comparison between Hasids and fundamentalist Muslims is quite apt. My cousin, who I was very close to, became involved with a Hasid group, after being totally unreligious. It caused a major break in my relationship with his whole family. I've heard he's moderated, to more of a mainstream Orthodox synagogue, but it was too much for me.
Trek, my take on the Hell thing is a little hazy. The concept of going to Hell certainly is not emphasized or talked about in the Reform liturgy. The emphasis is on doing good while you're here on Earth... so you actually make a difference in other's lives (i.e. repairing the world), not so you avoid going to Hell after death. Hence, most probably the reason there are so many Jewish people in helping professions. But, I am not actually sure that there is no concept of Hell.
Just my take on this. I asked my son, who spends a lot of time visiting friends in NYC, who live in Brooklyn, about this. He knew all about the issue and said it is really crazy just to drive through there.

[owlice]

The comparison between Hasids and fundamentalist Muslims is quite apt.

Except that I don't fear being bombed/attacked at my place of work by Hasidim, who, so far as I know, aren't interested in killing people who aren't Hasidic Jews just because those people aren't Hasidic Jews.

That said, the streets are public and should have what's necessary to make travel on the streets safe. If that means bike lanes, there should be bike lanes, and shame on the mayor for making the streets less safe.

[Crankin]

owlice, I meant the comparison was apt in terms of the lifestyle and the degree to which the (male) religious establishment wants to keep the women "protected" from outsiders. You are right, in that I would not fear violence from most Hasids, although there is a history (Maher Kahane in the '70's).
In general, I try to keep an open mind, but trying to shield women from the outside world is not something that I can condone in any religion, even my own. Domestic violence is a somewhat unspoken issue in the Orthodox community in general, which upsets me. Somehow, that "woman of valor" thing gets twisted around.
I wonder how this will be resolved.

[IvonaDestroi]

Seperation of church and state anyone? ANYONE???

umm safety is the issue? no bike lane is safer??? I think that might just be an excuse to undercut the actual religious issues of seeing the real world around them not conforming to their personal beliefs.

and on the topic of hipsters:I hate them. They are just rich kids pretending to be poor, following the latest mtv trends religiously, trying to be cool with no actual respect for any of the origins of what they think is trendy. They ride colorful fixed gear bicycles that their parents pay for, and think that makes them cool. they ride not because they love to cycle, but because it is trendy. The only reason they are 'protesting' like that is because they know mommy and daddy will always bail them out.


and an amusing definition of hipster from urbandictionary.com:

hipster:
Listens to bands that you have never heard of. Has hairstyle that can only be described as "complicated." (Most likely achieved by a minimum of one week not washing it.) Probably tattooed. Maybe gay. Definitely cooler than you. Reads Black Book, Nylon, and the Styles section of the New York Times. Drinks Pabst Blue Ribbon. Often. Complains. Always denies being a hipster. Hates the word. Probably living off parents money - and spends a great deal of it to look like they don't have any. Has friends and/or self cut hair. Dyes it frequently (black, white-blonde, etc. and until scalp bleeds). Has a closet full of clothing but usually wears same three things OVER AND OVER (most likely very tight black pants, scarf, and ironic tee-shirt). Chips off nail polish artfully after $50 manicure. Sleeps with everyone and talks about it at great volume in crowded coffee shops. Addicted to coffee, cigarettes (Parliaments, Kamel Reds, Lucky Strikes, etc.), and possibly cocaine. Claims to be in a band. Rehearsals consist of choosing outfits for next show and drinking PBR. Always on the list. Majors or majored in art, writing, or queer studies. Name-drops. May go by "Penny Lane," "Eleanor Rigby," etc. when drunk.

[Zen]

"Probably tattooed. Maybe gay. Definitely cooler than you. Has a closet full of clothing but usually wears same three things OVER AND OVER (most likely very tight black pants, scarf, and ironic tee-shirt). Addicted to coffee, and possibly cocaine. Claims to be in a band. . Majors or majored in art"

I think I might be a hipster

[owlice]

Crankin, points taken!

Zen, oh, say it isn't so!

[7rider]

"Probably tattooed. Maybe gay. Definitely cooler than you. Has a closet full of clothing but usually wears same three things OVER AND OVER (most likely very tight black pants, scarf, and ironic tee-shirt). Addicted to coffee, and possibly cocaine. Claims to be in a band. . Majors or majored in art"

Holy crow. You just described my nephew to a tee. And my ... what is he? My step-nephew??

[PamNY]

and an amusing definition of hipster from urbandictionary.com:

hipster:
Reads...the Styles section of the New York Times.

I am choking on my post-ride complex carbs here. I knew somebody must read the Styles section...now I know who.

Thanks for the laugh.

Pam

[Trek420]

Shooting Star, I think that quite a few of the "illegal" repainters were Jewish. But they are not Hasids, not even Orthodox, like the bridge person you mentioned.
There are many branches of Judaism, and there are divisions (schisms?) in each of these branches. There is a huge difference in observance and lifestyle between someone who is Modern Orthodox, like the person Shooting Star mentioned, and the Hasids.

There's variations within this but basically 3 categories: reform, conservative and orthodox.

Reform would be more progressive more likely to allow/have a female rabbi, cantors or both. Most would perform and honor LGBT marriages and families. Think of your liberal/progressive church.

Conservative might not dress any differently, indistinguishable from a largely Christian community but they are well ... more conservative, more likely to keep kosher etc.

Orthodox, adhering strictly to the Torah.

My grandmother grew up in an Orthodox household, her mother even had an arranged marriage, two of them actually. Her father (so my great great grandfather) did not like his first choice of a husband even though great grandma had come to fall in love with him. He demanded she divorce him and remarry someone more to his liking.

[Biciclista]

My grandmother grew up in an Orthodox household, her mother even had an arranged marriage, two of them actually. Her father (so my great great grandfather) did not like his first choice of a husband even though great grandma had come to fall in love with him. He demanded she divorce him and remarry someone more to his liking.

That's one of the saddest stories I've ever heard...

[Trek420]

Maybe this will cheer you up. Actually maybe not. Lemme see, so great Grandma went on to marry the other dude, her first husband eventually married and became a success in business.

That was the objection, not that he was a bad guy or anything. He wanted to be a businessman and NOT a Talmudic scholar. His eyes got opened to the possibilities when serving in the army. In Orthodox communities being a scholar is the height of success. Often the women run businesses while the men study. How you gonna keep em down in the schule after they've seen Paris?

So she's remarried, first hubby is too, I don't think he and his wife ever had kids of their own. I should find out.

My grandma made it to the USA, this is the sad part, one of the few members of my Mom's family who escaped She never saw her family again, except for this step-dad I guess you'd call him and a cousin who was already here. She remained staunchly anti Orthodox all her days. In her youth Grandma had hair down nearly to her feet and refused to cut it when she married. Her DH did not mind so why not?

Orthodox women cut their hair short at marriage and wear wigs. Only your husband sees your real hair.

For that transgression my great grandma refused to see her off at the train. That, as much as the Holocaust she blamed for never seeing them again. She felt somehow if that had not come between them they might have followed over.

I really do not think they could have made it out of Poland given the timing when she left but that haunted grandma I think.

Anyway her step-dad and his 2nd wife are already here in the USA.

Both helped with with the kids, my Mom and Aunt.

My mom has fond memories of going to the beach where they swam daily. One would watch her and her sister while the other swam and then switch.

[Crankin]

What a story, Trek. My family is so boring. All grandparents born in the US, all 4 families arriving sometime in the decades after the Civil War. Yea, they think they came over on the Mayflower.
My dad's dad was born in the US, but his mom hated it here. They went back to Germany for a few years when he was 2 (born in 1895), but I guess she finally saw the writing on the wall and returned to Connecticut. The great grandfather I knew, rubbed soap in his eyes to escape serving in the Czar's army. He gave himself cataracts, but managed to get to Worcester, MA, where my mom's mom was born. He was an austere, tall guy, who was very formal. He lived until I was 12, so we used to see him frequently. Typical stoic Russian in my eyes.
Seriously, both sides of my family worked really hard at turning themselves into "Yankees," and until my cousin became Orthodox, I was the most religious person in my family. When my kids were little, I decided that since I was sending them to a JCC preschool, I wouldn't be a hypocrite and so I learned, along with them.

[Trek420]

I don't know that Russians are stoic. Maybe it depends on where in Russia they are from? My dad's side of the family is from there, Odessa/Kiev. I never met my grandfather (actually either of them, paternal or maternal).

Born in Russia my dad was hardly stoic, unless by that you mean able to persevere through great difficulties without complaining while maintaining a sense of humor. I think that was one of many great qualities he had.

But also a great sense of humor especially puns and from what I hear his Dad did too.

Grandma and Grandpa both graduated from the Royal Music Conservatory in Odessa. They went on to tour as singers, then grandpa became a cantor at a temple in New York. Although his career was before widespread availability of recording he's thought by some to be one of the half dozen or so best cantors evah

Someday soon when things calm down and I'm less focussed on trying to move my job and bikes to the PNW I would like to learn more about Judaism.

[Selkie]

..... The emphasis is on doing good while you're here on Earth... so you actually make a difference in other's lives (i.e. repairing the world), not so you avoid going to Hell after death. Hence, most probably the reason there are so many Jewish people in helping professions. ....

This says it all, Crankin. Focus on others, not on yourself (i.e., doing good just you so can avoid hell?)

I love NYC.....

[Trek420]

That seems very much part of or the essence of the Judeo Christian tradition. You know that bit about somewhere (someone here will quote this I'm sure) something like "as you treat the least of mine that's how you're known as ...."

It's not going to God's Gym (yes there is one in my area)
Or wearing the WWJD lanyard for your work id.
Or what church you go to ....

It's how you treat others I think.