Minarets in Switzerland

[lph]

uurrh.. I have an elderly co-worker with a penchant for forwarding chain e-mails. They're usually harmless, but last time it was a "Do not forget the horrors of World War II"-thing, with lots of gory pictures, urging us all to pass it on. Most of it was earnest but acceptable as such (if maybe a little over-the-top for work), but there was also a totally ridiculous claim that British schools had stopped teaching about the Holocaust to avoid upsetting Muslim pupils.

I saw red, googled it to be sure of my facts, and the first hit I got was from a national newspaper telling how this claim was a hoax. I must admit I didn't just let it pass in silence, but sent a reply email to everyone who had got the first one saying that this claim was wrong, and suggesting they delete it if they wanted to pass the chain e-mail on.

I guess I'm the office busybody, but random unthinking bigotism like this just makes my blood boil.

[crazycanuck]

Beth, it's spelt Eid

What I didn't pay attention to was the Hajj is at the same time as US thanksgiving. Cool hey. The Hajj is one amazing festival!!!

What is really frightening...There are these T-shirts & stickers quite a few bogans wear with the slogan "F off We're full" in the shape of Australia.

[Trek420]

.... I know there are bigots in the US. I live in the South. However, I think many of them have learned that they are in the minority, and they best keep their mouth shut. Most of them that I know express their opinions privately, and don't petition or campaign actively against other religions.

As someone who considers myself thrice blessed; Jewish, Female and Gay I'm very aware of the existence of hate groups. The green dots/areas on the map below are people who pledged to stand up against hate.

The red dots are documented hate groups.

http://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Pretty much everywhere. I've seen it, met it, lived it, hear it daily. Hate is very ugly .... be a green dot please

[KnottedYet]

I know there are bigots in the US. I live in the South. However, I think many of them have learned that they are in the minority, and they best keep their mouth shut. Most of them that I know express their opinions privately, and don't petition or campaign actively against other religions.

They just go to other churches on Sunday and kill people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxvil...hurch_shooting
Or go to other states and protest in front of other churches, schools, synagogues, and Jewish daycare centers. (including mine)
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/407211_hate0614.html

Kind of a bummer for the rest of us, really.
So we do things like this: http://www.standingonthesideoflove.org/

Knottedyet - very very proud to be a Unitarian.

[shootingstar]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/gthl/a...in-kids-hockey

Problems in today's minor hockey league in Greater Toronto area. And some of this is coming from spectators/parents...to kids on ice.

Ok...we can critique Switzerland but really, not to become too complacent here that life is rosy in North America.

[Grog]

I would jump to defend Switzerland in any conversation revolving around social/racial justice. I have seen some sad situations there, but I have seen sad and sadder situations elsewhere. (Haven't spend much time in Switzerland either.)

It is also important not to talk about "Western Europe" as a block. Each country is quite different from the next.

However, I think it is difficult for North Americans to appreciate the demographic situation of some European countries, and how far it is from the American melting pot or from Canadian multiculturalism. I do not know much about it, but I think it might compare to some extent to the fears associated with the rise of Latino culture in some U.S. States.

There definitely needs to be a lot of education on all sides....

[Tuckervill]

I take it all back.

Last night I went to our hometown Christmas parade. My town is home to a well-respected private Christian university. They think they own this town. In fact, the mayor said so, right before he started the parade. He said something to the effect that "this is a Christian town, thanks to the Christian University, and it's okay to say Merry CHRISTmas instead of Happy Holidays and our city should be celebrating CHRISTmas on Jesus' birthday because it's important that we maintain our freedoms..." yadayadayada. Lots of applause and high-fiving and amens.

Then I heard a story from a friend of mine who owns a local business. She said a homeless woman had been coming in her place and when my friend found out she was homeless she called the local Christian homeless shelter (it's the only one). They said they knew the woman in question and that "she didn't meet their criteria due to 'lifestyle' issues." Which basically means they won't help her because she's a lesbian! My friend (who is a transplant from Britain) replied, "Oh, so if she was a DOG we'd be able to give her a place to sleep at night?!" And now "they" are boycotting her business.

Yikes.
Karen

[shootingstar]

Then I heard a story from a friend of mine who owns a local business. She said a homeless woman had been coming in her place and when my friend found out she was homeless she called the local Christian homeless shelter (it's the only one). They said they knew the woman in question and that "she didn't meet their criteria due to 'lifestyle' issues." Which basically means they won't help her because she's a lesbian! My friend (who is a transplant from Britain) replied, "Oh, so if she was a DOG we'd be able to give her a place to sleep at night?!" And now "they" are boycotting her business.

Yikes.
Karen

Sad to hear this! Just wrong translation of Christian faith. I hope your friend remains steadfast and keeps her heart in the right place for others in need.

[KnottedYet]

He said something to the effect that "this is a Christian town, thanks to the Christian University, and it's okay to say Merry CHRISTmas instead of Happy Holidays and our city should be celebrating CHRISTmas on Jesus' birthday because it's important that we maintain our freedoms..." yadayadayada. Lots of applause and high-fiving and amens.

Then they should be celebrating Saturnalia now, and Jesus' birthday in June... cuz according to the bible (the timing of the census/tax ordered by Caesar, the sheep season and shepherds' work) Jesus was born in late June or early July.

Christians celebrated Christ's Mass during Saturnalia for several astute political reasons, but not because that is the time of year when Jesus was born. Many of the cultural things we consider traditionally "Christian" and "Christmas" are borrowed from pagan celebrations of solstice (including Saturnalia). It cracks me up when I see churches freaking about how there *should* be Christmas Trees up, because they are Christian symbols of Christ's Mass.... when a few decades ago they were just as vigorously condemning them for the pagan symbols they truly are.

(and let's not forget the Feast of Stephen.... which was the original celebration at this time of year. And Easter (name borrowed from the Roman goddess whose celebration in spring involved eggs and rabbits), don't even let me get started on Easter and The Last Supper (which was a Passover Seder cuz Jesus was a Jew, so really we SHOULD be celebrating Channukah right now) and all that.

As they say, "ignorance is bliss". But knowledge is so much more fun!

[Tuckervill]

Even many Christians of my acquaintance KNOW that Jesus was not born on December 25, but they choose to ignore this truth...okay, just don't get me started.

Karen

[bmccasland]

I still remember the look on my pastor's face when I asked him why we didn't celebrate Passover, since the last supper was really a Passover Sedar? Blubber blubber stutter.

Then I never could wrap my head around the whole communion thing, the symbolism of what you're drinking and eating. I can get sharing a meal, but that's not what they say in the standard liturgy.



So if "they" are going to outlaw types of architecture, how excactly are they going to write the rules? Or does that matter?

[Pax]

Saw this in an email this morning...seemed appropriate to the thread direction:



Letter from Jesus about Christmas --

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season. Maybe you've forgotten that I wasn't actually born during this time of the year and that it was some of your predecessors who decided to celebrate My birthday on what was actually a time of pagan festival. Although I do appreciate being remembered anytime.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.

Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it:

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.

3. Instead of writing the President complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up. It will be nice hearing from you again.

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.

5 Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.

6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families

8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary-- especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.

10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember:

I LOVE YOU,
JESUS

[OakLeaf]

Pax, that's terrific, thanks for that.

[cashmere]

I am truly disappointed in the swiss decision about the building of minarets, this is such a wrong decision and I can only hope it will be overturned with the next vote. I truly hope another group gets together, collects enough signature to have a new vote to overturn this one.
I would nevertheless like to correct some of the opinions offered here about the constitution of Switzerland and Germany. The right to freedom of faith, as is the freedom of speech is firmly embedded in both constitutions. The separation of church and state is in place, at least as firmly as in the US. Citizens who are a member of one of the major churches pay a tax which is collected by the state and disseminated to the respective church. Those who have a different faith or do not belong to any confession/church do not pay this tax. A large percentage of social services is provided by the state. Switzerland is one of the oldest democracies in the world, with a large number of decision made by a direct vote where all citizens can vote. A relatively small number of signatures is sufficient to initiate such a vote and I hope that this will be the way the minaret decision will be overturned. Neither Switzerland nor Germany are immigration countries in the way the US is for historical reasons, and still the percentage of foreigners living in Switzerland is around 20-25%. And 4 different languages coexist... although I would agree that it is not a "melting pot" in the way at least some regions in the US are.
in case you want to read up on the consitutions:

http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm#I
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/sz00000_.html

I have to admit that I am someone who laughs about all the little things like the one mentioned about the lawn mower, but many of those are born out of the fact that people live rather close together.

happy riding.

[papaver]

I've thought alot about this one. I really hesitated to reply, but I have to. I'm the kind of person that respects everyones beliefs. I don't judge other people's way of living. And I expect the same of others. But that doesn't happen.

In cities like Brussels there are A LOT of muslims. In large parts of the city every westener has moved. Sometimes I have to go in these parts of the town and each and every time I'm harassed by the men. Why? Because I don't wear a veil. Sometimes they stand around you with 6 to 12 men at the same time, and I can tell you, it is NOT a nice feeling. They say I don't respect their religion. I'm sorry, but where is their respect for me?????

Now they want to announce their moments of prayer via megaphones. We really don't want that. It's like we're living in a muslim country and we're not.

In countries like Belgium, France, Holland there's a whole veil debate. Are they allowed to wear one at school? Or at work? It's a huge statement, you know. It's not like you're wearing a discrete cross or whatever.

I know quite a few Turkish and Moroccan girls and they are all forced to wear a veil. The men have become a lot more fanatic the last ten years or so. I've been to muslim countries and there the people are much more tolerant to Europeans and to women in general.

Last month a Moroccan girl was killed by her parents and their imman, her crime: she had a girlfriend. They tortured her with boiling water. There are quite a few 'murders for honour' here where brothers or fathers kill their sister because she doesn't want to marry the man of their choice or because she has a relationship with another boy.

There is absolutely NO integration whatsoever with the local population. They don't want to. They only go to their shops, pay with their native currency, you don't see them on TV. They just live on their island and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

So yes I can understand the Swiss population. I wish I didn't though.