The state of education:

[MartianDestiny]

Sorry, I have problems feeling sorry for most professors. They b*tch & moan if they have to teach over three classes/year and please, don't ask them to teach any class over 30 students without a teaching assistant to do the grunt work. And, they get tenure which means "job for life." I saw very few professors who really gave a damn about the students.

Clearly you've never taught a class and have very little idea of the effort (and time) it takes to do so well. You also clearly have very little understanding of EVERYTHING that is expected of a Professor....here's a hint: teaching classes is less than 1/3 of the responsibility.

I've never seen a professor moan about 2-3 classes a semester (that's 4-6 a year...not 3 a year...) for starters.

Here's an estimate of the time involved: 2-3hrs to prepare a lecture X twice a week, per class. Maybe you've already taught it before, that's still 1-2hrs to go over your notes and recall/update, per lecture, per class. So, if you are teaching 3 classes a semester that's 6-18hrs per week just in preparing lectures. Then there's grading. A 5-10 question multiple choice quiz will take 5 minutes per student to grade; 3 classes at 30 students a piece (forget the large lecture first year/non-major courses that can easily have 50-200 students...) that's 450 minutes or 7.5 hrs. A mathematical or scientific problem set homework of 5-10 questions...easily 30 to 45 minutes per student to grade. 5-10 page essays, an hour per student. Tests, midterms, finals, 45min-1hr per student. You'll have at least one of those a week. Then there's office hours: 3-5 hrs per class per week where you may or may not have time to do something else. O, and you'll be all but expected to hold review sessions as well.

That is a full time job, but remember it's 1/3 of the expected responsibilities. Maybe you have graduate assistants to help with grading, review sessions, office hours, but it's still a significant number of hours.

Then there is research. They want you to publish 1-3 meaningful articles per year in peer reviewed journals (or be writing a book). I can assure you that is a full time job as well, even if you have students doing some of the research.

Then there are committees, admissions boards, new faculty interviews, community service, conferences (which you had BETTER present at...), etc.

If you can't keep up with that FORGET getting Tenure, and MANY MANY professors DO NOT HAVE IT. "Associate" "Assistant" = NON-TENURED.

I've come across a few professors that "didn't care" about students (ONLY a few). Most cared and would do anything in their power if they actually knew you (yea, that meant actually talking with them, showing up at office hours, etc). Most were also completely frazzled. Trying to keep up with all the expectations at work, trying to get tenure (because if you don't within an alloted period you are GONE, not because they wanted a "job for life"), trying to raise a family, trying to actually get home before midnight, dealing with the ridiculous "we don't have enough paper for you to print that test" crap, etc, etc.

Despite that a lot of them actually enjoy their jobs, kudos to them!

And no, I am not a professor and do not want to be.

[shootingstar]

Perhaps Dogmama might be referring to the tendency of the tenure system where for some faculties at many universities, there is greater emphasis on continuous research.

Certainly in the Masters and PhD programs for alot of disciplines, there are no mandatory courses for Masters and PhD candidates as well as professiors, to take courses on cognitive and learning theory of adult learners.

HOWEVER ongoing improvement in teaching skills, is often greatly encouraged whereby internal courses are offered by some universities /colleges to existing university / college instructors to improve their teaching and facilitation skills when they are "hired' or on staff.

I guess I've heard this about teaching quality, from dearie's daughter who taught several lst year undergraduate university English literature courses when she was pursuing her Masters.

And also from a brother-in-law who does not have full professor nor associate professor status but he did his PhD, has been a researcher and instructor with faculty of Engineering (at Canada's largest university) for over past 25 years and still is. He usually carries a teaching load per semester of 2-3 courses for 2nd to 4th year undergraduate engineering courses. However recently in past 2 years, he carried a load of 4 courses for some semesters. That is tremendous because he still must do his own research work, still publishing and presenting internationally. I don't know about his teaching competency but he is by nature, a patient person who would be conscientous enough to teach something in a logical manner.

My initial earlier comments on increased student class size at the colleges and universities are more from the student's perspective, who have paid for their education with the expectation of instructional quality and attention.

Of course things get messy, when some of the lower ranked instructors go on strike. They did for several months at York University in Toronto. It really messed up many students in terms of educational quality and financially when it's expensive to extend accommodation and living expenses. In the end, their semester this year was compressed and shortened by several weeks or alot more. Students were also forced to remain in the city until June instead of April this year to complete their courses in order to get their credits counted towards their degrees. This happened to a nephew.

[Owlie]

Perhaps Dogmama might be referring to the tendency of the tenure system where for some faculties at many universities, there is greater emphasis on continuous research.

Certainly in the Masters and PhD programs for alot of disciplines, there are no mandatory courses for Masters and PhD candidates as well as professiors, to take courses on cognitive and learning theory of adult learners.

HOWEVER ongoing improvement in teaching skills, is often greatly encouraged whereby internal courses are offered by some universities /colleges to existing university / college instructors to improve their teaching and facilitation skills when they are "hired' or on staff.

I guess I've heard this about teaching quality, from dearie's daughter who taught several lst year undergraduate university English literature courses when she was pursuing her Masters.

And also from a brother-in-law who does not have full professor nor associate professor status but he did his PhD, has been a researcher and instructor with faculty of Engineering (at Canada's largest university) for over past 25 years and still is. He usually carries a teaching load per semester of 2-3 courses for 2nd to 4th year undergraduate engineering courses. However recently in past 2 years, he carried a load of 4 courses for some semesters. That is tremendous because he still must do his own research work, still publishing and presenting internationally.

My initial earlier comments on increased student class size at the colleges and universities are more from the student's perspective, who have paid for their education with the expectation of instructional quality and attention.

My experience does come from a research university. A small research university, but a research university nonetheless. My research advisor teaches two lecture courses a year now that he's not teaching o-chem, but he also acts as a research advisor to undergrads like me. The profs who don't teach undergrad courses often have to teach grad courses in addition to their research, academic advising, and research.

[OakLeaf]

I never had a professor who really seemed not to care.

Teachers in elementary and high school, definitely. Never in college or law school. There was definitely variation in their ability to make the material (1) clear and (2) interesting, but never a lack of commitment.

From the opposite perspective - I taught one course at a technical college. I know I didn't do a very good job of it - I appear to be the only one in my family who didn't get the teaching gene - but it wasn't for lack of trying. Still, for the $3.00 an hour it worked out to, I could've worked at McDonald's and gotten something to eat, too. Whatever amount of homework students do for each class, multiply that by about five for the professor.

And from a third perspective - my sister, the tenured professor, is lucky to have a stay-at-home husband, otherwise she'd never have been able to raise her daughter. Her work is every bit as demanding as mine ever was. Sure she complains about her undergrads sometimes - just as all the teachers here vent about their students, and just as I had some problem clients - but she loves what she does. Once every few years she has a semester when she doesn't have any classes, but that doesn't mean she isn't extremely busy with her research, only that she has a bit more flexibility with her time.

C'mon, we need a professor here to defend her profession with the same teeth and claws V. has for hers.