The state of education:

[badgercat]

Sorry to continue taking this off topic, but...

I'm referring to graduate courses, which are more expensive anyway, and because I'd be a)out of state and b)taking non-degree courses for that year, I'd be charged by credit hour. If I went to U of A, I'd be charged a bit more than $800 per credit hour (plus fees, which brings it to about $1000), and if I went to University of Cincinnati or Ohio State, I'd be paying $425-500 (including fees) per credit hour. (I pulled the numbers off their respective websites.)
But I agree, the in-state undergrad tuition in AZ is insanely low, and even the grad tuition is low.

Yes, taking courses per-credit is expensive here at U of A. Are the non-degree courses prerequisites that you might be able to take elsewhere? On the flip side, my boyfriend is doing non-degree courses right now but a certain number of those credits can apply towards his eventual degree if he gets in the program, which could be worth it depending on your situation.

Long story short--my boyfriend and I are both in grad school in some capacity at the U of A (I am in a degree program, he's not), and we both are (him) or started (me) as out-of-state students. Feel free to PM me if you have questions I might be able to help with.

[Veronica]

I always bristle when people talk about doing a better job in the elementary years. What would that look like?

We've been doing 20 - 1 in CA for 12 years or so now for grade K - 3. In all honesty, it hasn't made much of a difference by the time they get to me. I still have at least a third of my class who can't read at grade level and who don't know their basic facts. I have 33 fifth graders crammed into my classroom. Would smaller class sizes for longer make a difference? Fourth grade is when they are expected to start learning from their reading and that's when class size jumps up by ten - fourteen kids. But it all costs money and there's no money to be had now.

What do we teachers do with those kids who impinge on the learning of others with their emotional baggage that they are bringing from home? What do we do with those kids who don't eat breakfast? Who arrive late every day? Who have no place to do their homework? Who are expected to babysit younger siblings after school so they can't do their homework? What about the kids with ADD who are a constant distraction to their peers? Or the ones with Oppositional Defiant Disorder who will scream at you if you look at them funny? Or the first grader who tells his teacher to F--- off? All that and more happens at my school and I'm at one of the better schools in my town.

So, come on, tell me what I should be doing differently so that we would have a better elementary education system. How would you fix it?

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

I was afraid you'd take that wrong.

To be clear, I didn't mean anything about any individual teacher. Obviously there are systems and individuals all along the continuum, but the majority of teachers are doing the best you can with what you're given, in a job that's hugely underappreciated.

It's "what you're given" and "underappreciated" that I have a big problem with. IMO there needs to be systemic change in the whole way that children are raised/educated in this country. And the way all economic "nonproducers," which includes children, stay-at-home parents, those with severe disabilities, and the retired - need to be treated. But there we delve into politics....

[Veronica]

I was afraid you'd take that wrong.

LOL You knew I'd launch into a tirade. I'm good.

Personally I think no one should be allowed to have children until he/she has passed my test, because it all starts at home. I haven't worked out the details on the test yet...


Veronica

[Dogmama]

LOL You knew I'd launch into a tirade. I'm good.

Personally I think no one should be allowed to have children until he/she has passed my test, because it all starts at home. I haven't worked out the details on the test yet...


Veronica

Ooooo - can I help? Please? Can I? Please?

My DH's grandson threatened one of his high school teachers with, "I know where you park your car." Result? Two day suspension. Holy crap, Batman! A few months later he was caught by a cop pointing a gun (BB, but still) out of a car at somebody else. Result? One page essay about how that was wrong (handed down by a judge!!)

Now, with crappy grades, a worse attitude and an alcohol problem his mother is buying him a VAN! Yup - guess he's been a good kid. Oh, and he threatened her too with, "You have to sleep sometime."

So, when he goes to school, we expect him to be an angel?

Friend of mine is a school counselor. She tells me about kids who miss school because they have to meet their parent's drug dealers & exchange money. The parents are cooking meth at home. The kids come into school with the same clothes, no breakfast, no homework & no sleep. This is at a lower-middle income area. It isn't June Cleaver's house but it isn't the absolute pits.

[Trek420]

Or the ones with Oppositional Defiant Disorder who will scream at you if you look at them funny?

I'm sorry, this is a disorder with an acronym and maybe a charity road ride to find a cure now? This is as opposed to just an out of control kid that needs whatever one does with an out of control kid?

Like duct tape maybe?

I'd like to see the test, V. Will it be multiple choice? Pass/fail? Graded on a curve?

It starts at home. But V and all our TE teachers you make a big difference. Thanks.

OK, first question:

You come home from a hard day at the meth lab. Your toddler says "Mommy, Daddy read to me again, please!" Do you:
a) sit with your child and read showing that you value reading and time with them, creating memories of reading together.
b) say "not now, I have to drink a 6 pack first. Here, watch some TV"
c) say "read to you? I can't read"

[Crankin]

Ah, this thread has drifted a bit....
No, not everyone should go to college, but I sort of agree that to make it, you need some sort of technical post high school training, unless you have gone to a very good technical high school. Of course, around here, college is considered compulsory. Our state schools are woefully underfunded because most people would rather go to to a 3d rate private school for a lot more $, than say they went to a state school. A few people have just come to the realization that community colleges are actually great places to get an education or training for a career...
I went to a community college and 2 state universities. I am now getting my second grad degree at a smaller private university. I do see a difference in the type of education I am getting, compared to my master's in ed. I got at ASU, but I think it is more a function of the particular school I am going to, which is very holistically oriented. I got a great education at ASU for both my BA and MA.
As for the poor quality of the undergraduates; well, I think there was a lot of that when I went to school (in the 70s), but we saw it in different ways, since there was no technology to distract people. Other things did, like drugs and alcohol.

[ginny]

I know that most of out teachers are running a full on marathon each and every day to do the most they can for the greatest number of children. I also understand that children come from different backgrounds and that not every family values education. I am pretty sure I live in a highly educated bubble. I have never seen children attend school hungry or wearing the same clothes they slept in because they had to watch their younger siblings while mom got high. What I do know, though, is that the only way out of that mess for those children is a good education. I come from the west coast. Our state schools are great (or they were). We are a very diverse nation. How do we educate all strata? How do we ensure a better life for those who come from nothing? We ensure that early education is adequate. We ensure that higher education is accessible. 10k/yr is not accessible to a large majority of individuals in this country. If the kids wearing grubby jeans and ratty t-shirts somehow get through high school, sure they can maybe get loans to cover undergrad, but that starts young adults off in the hole. I don't know what the answer is, but it saddens me that we are pricing a higher education out of reach of those who need is most. I know.... I'm completely idealistic. Those kids probably don't want to go to college anyway, but what if there was just one who did? ... and now he/she gives up her goal because of a 32% tuition hike? -shaking head- I dunno... it just seems sad...

[shootingstar]

Something as part of Veronica's test for parental suitability to raise preschool children better on: how to raise self-regulating children.

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Rai...006/story.html

"These four areas of executive functioning are very important to the health and well being of children," she says. They foster awareness at an early age of the benefits of exerting personal control over thoughts, feelings and actions, and can be called upon to resolve conflicts, correct mistakes or plan new actions, she says. And kids will likely spend less time frustrated and have more time for fun, friends and finding solutions.
Without sufficient self-regulation, a discouraging cascade of events can occur.
"The child who does not have self-regulation at five years of age is the child who cannot follow the teacher's directions at age six or who cannot plan how to solve a problem at age seven," says a report for the U.S. National Institute for Early Education Research. "The child without self-regulation of emotions at age four will not be able to control his temper at five and will have negative peer interactions at age seven."
A former preschool and elementary school teacher, Boyer says she found many children who needed support in self regulation. And there's even more stimulation and temptation facing them today.
Luckily, whether a child is easygoing or strong-willed, exuberant or slow to warm, parents can help their kids acquire self-regulation, she says.
In one of her studies, 146 families and 15 early childhood educators identified five factors that foster self-regulation:
- Optimism — seeing good events as "permanent, pervasive and personal" and bad events as temporary, specific and not due to the child.
- Empathy — understanding for the feelings of others. How would you feel if that happened to you?
- Stability and consistency in daily experiences — set times for waking, reading, bath and bed help kids understand their world is dependable.
- Channelling reactions and energy through play and physical activity.
- Ability to use self-talk to comfort and encourage themselves, as in "It's OK — I am sad because I lost the toy, but I have other toys."
Ways parents can encourage "executive function" in their kids:
- Practice challenging tasks for kids in advance.
- Demonstrate good self-regulation in parents' own lives.
- Throw a ball back and forth to separate kids from the source of frustration.
- Encourage imaginative, unstructured play, which has a big role in self-talk that governs thoughts and actions.
- Notice progress: "Remember how you got so angry the last time but today you were able to handle it."
- Reinforce the ability to calm themselves — "I can have a snack when I get home."
- Read to them without showing them the pictures to develop their ability to hold a story in their heads.
- Read books that exemplify positive self-talk, such as The Little Engine That Could.
- Play games such as Simon Says to help keep the rules of the game in their heads.
- Avoid commands that might stifle children’s ability to make good choices.
- Use reminders to prompt children, such as a watch with an alarm to signal impending time's up.
- Give advance warning of the rules to head off trouble spots

[Veronica]

I grew up on welfare. I was one of those kids who wore the same thing to school because I had nothing else. My mother wasn't a druggie, she worked a forty hour a week job at minimum wage, took overtime when she could. But with 4 kids at home and no child support, it was tough.

I knew I had to work hard in school and get some scholarships. I was lucky and I did. Then I decided to get married after my freshman year and transfer to a school in CA to be near my husband. Good bye scholarship. And yeah I finished school and my teaching credential owing a lot of money. I don't know why it's too hard for 20 somethings now to deal with that. That's life... We were paying off our debt into our early 30s.

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

And yeah I finished school and my teaching credential owing a lot of money. I don't know why it's too hard for 20 somethings now to deal with that. That's life... We were paying off our debt into our early 30s.

Veronica

Salaries don't even cover student loan payments any more. That's the result of the combination of the increase in loan interest, the decrease in grant money, and the decrease in real wages.

I did a refinancing and got (I think two) extensions, lived very modestly, and still the only reason my loans were paid off before I was 45 was because my second husband helped me out.

It's no wonder educated women defer motherhood... they have to pay off their loans first...

[shootingstar]

Our state schools are great (or they were). We are a very diverse nation. How do we educate all strata? How do we ensure a better life for those who come from nothing? We ensure that early education is adequate. We ensure that higher education is accessible. 10k/yr is not accessible to a large majority of individuals in this country. If the kids wearing grubby jeans and ratty t-shirts somehow get through high school, sure they can maybe get loans to cover undergrad, but that starts young adults off in the hole. I don't know what the answer is, but it saddens me that we are pricing a higher education out of reach of those who need is most. I know.... I'm completely idealistic. Those kids probably don't want to go to college anyway, but what if there was just one who did? ... and now he/she gives up her goal because of a 32% tuition hike? -shaking head- I dunno... it just seems sad...

Canada has the same problem of increased college and university tuition for degree/credit programs. For past 25 years, it is norm that if a student doesn't have family to financially assist, not enough money from summer/part-time job, then it is the norm the student will acquire a sizable debt at graduation. (Just to dispell ideas that Canada is a social state in all areas of our society. Mindboggling that in Germany, university tuition was free for Germans at German universities, until approx. 5-10 yrs. ago. Even now they only pay several thousand $$ annually. I found out last year from our German ex-patriate work staff.)

However I must admit, I am amazed by the number of university students who head to tropical areas during reading vacation week for a good time. I often think: "How can they afford this?" It was a rare trend when I was university student in cold Ontario...in late 1970's to early 1980's. Meanwhile I was slugging it out at K-mart as a cashier part-time during my university years.

So glad I did my degrees back then.

[Veronica]

Salaries don't even cover student loan payments any more. ..

That's scary. My first job paid me 20K a year and Thom's first post Marine job paid about 28K. I guess getting married young was a good thing since his income really paid off my college loans.

We had no money for extras. Our rent was $600 a month.

Veronica

[lph]

In Norway university tuition is free (well, apart from books). You get a student loan and a stipend, which together is enough to live on, frugally. Most students hold a part-time job to have a bit more than that. But the loan has very good terms, so a lot of people choose to take up the full loan. New mothers get a stipend about the size of 6 months loan, if I remember correctly, to be able to stay home with the baby. If you hold a fulltime job when you give birth you're allotted almost a year's paid leave.

Don't shoot me, I just live here.

Oh, and we also have taxes that a lot of Americans would find horrendous. I don't, I pay them willingly.

[malkin]

It's as true today as when Woody Guthrie wrote it:

California is a Garden of Eden
A paradise to live in or see,
but believe it or not,
You won't find it so hot,
If you ain't got that dough-ray-me.