"Unfair Genetic Advantage"

[spazzdog]

If it hasn't been mentioned before, a wonderful novel titled "Middlesex" is out there in bookworld. The author describes a few (of the several) types of intersex states.


But to the actual subject, young Semenya... what a horrible way to find out. An unconscionable person in a medical capacity leaks to a newspaper. I could care less about the competition at this point. I hope there is some psych support for this young woman (thats whats on her birth certificate).

spazz

[smilingcat]

I heard she has no womb nor ovaries but a testicle of sorts in her body... Okay.

And if you were AIS then no amount of testosterone will make you male. But she does seem to have some male like attributes. sooo I'm bit confused here. Just from the physiology perspective and nothing to do with athletics. And if being AIS makes your body to reject or not recognize the testosterone so you develop as a woman? but wouldn't you need estrogen to make you a girl?? Why is it that lack of testosterone (or not recognizing the male hormone) make you a girl instead of well.... I dunno. I'm really ignorant sometimes. I mean no offense. Seriously confused.

Reporting in the media, the testing labs. THEY MAKE ME ANGRY!! If I were like Ms. Semenya and it happend to me, I think I would be angry, hurt, ... What a $hit thing to happen. Sorry I rarely swear but this really takes the cake.

I hope she can continue to compete as a woman and for her to keep her medal. ***'em.

Okay I need to go and calm myself down. Seriously!!

[BalaRoja]

........ But she does seem to have some male like attributes. sooo I'm bit confused here. Just from the physiology perspective and nothing to do with athletics. And if being AIS makes your body to reject or not recognize the testosterone so you develop as a woman? but wouldn't you need estrogen to make you a girl?? Why is it that lack of testosterone (or not recognizing the male hormone) make you a girl instead of well.... I dunno. I'm really ignorant sometimes. I mean no offense. Seriously confused.

Hi smilingcat - don't think you are being offensive at all. You are asking valid and reasonable questions.

Why does she develop as a woman without estrogen you ask?

This female physical development is not due to the presence and influence of estrogens (which are absent in AIS people) but actually due to the the ineffectiveness of androgens . In other words, the inherent trend is for any fetus to develop female external genitals and general body form, UNLESS male hormones are present.

Think of it this way - and this is an oversimplification but perhaps a useful idea:

we all start out as female at conception, sort of, but then some become male shortly thereafter if certain conditions are present.

[Mr. Bloom]

I continue to agree with quotes in SadieKate's posted article...if she is naturally what she is, then she should be allowed to compete. Anything more than that is an "overengineered and intellectualized conclusion" by people who are paid to feel important by debating the number of angels who can fit on the head of a pin.

To me, an "unfair advantage" is one that doesn't naturally occur.

[papaver]

whatever the outcome, when you see her, there's such a 'tristesse' about her. I just hope she doesn't become a freak show for the amusement of others.

[lph]

To me this is two issues, not one:

1. the issue of gender in sports - what are the guidelines, what's "fair", does fair even exist? A technical and scientific question, maybe possible to solve.

2. media hassle, "humane" treatment of athletes, what should they put up with, what's unacceptable? A moral question. To my mind her age shouldn't be relevant, because "kids" shouldn't be in the cut-throat world that elite sports has become.

typing fast, in a hurry..

[crazycanuck]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...w-1786139.html

[KnottedYet]

what's really sad is that if she looked differently, physically, all these news folks would be doing profiles on how her physical traits were an awesome thing that enabled her to breeze through the wind, etc., etc., much like they do for Phelps and how his physical attributes are ideally suited to going fast in the water.

But, no....

If she looked like this on the track: http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/53404,...-hermaphrodite

[Trek420]

So if she wore makeup, maybe sprinted in a skort this whole thing would not happen?

[Grog]

Other than being mad at everybody for leaking the information and all the circus, I am also mad at her national federation and whoever is coaching her. (I know nothing of her background so apologies if my ignorance makes me say stupid things.)

I watched one of the finals she won. It's not like she won by a little bit. She's FAR ahead of the bunch. This is not the Olympics, where there are athletes from every country no matter how good they are. This is the World Championships, where all the best of the best, the fastest of the fastest, are.

Now, if I was a coach with the athlete's best interest in mind, and I knew my athlete was running those kinds of really, really unusual times, I would perhaps have thought about smart ways to address though issues before even sending her to compete at this level. I wouldn't think of her as sort of a "secret weapon" that's just going to go there and win races, wowing the world with amazing times.

I guess I have a bit of a tendency to see things in a medical way sometimes, but I see "running that incredibly fast" as a symptom. I'm not talking about the social aspects of it, just about the health issues associated with many alternative chromosomal arrangements. Considering the underlying medical issues and risks to the person's life (in the long term, not because of the running), I would have considered counseling PRIOR to sending her on the national stage where she would most obviously be made into the object of a circus. I don't think she was in a position to make an informed decision about what she would be exposed to by going to Berlin.

I am not sure how, where, and against whom intersexed people should be racing. The whole idea of men and women categories is indeed antiquated to what we know today about everything in between and beyond. It's rather easy to solve as far as washrooms are concerned, but for sporting events it's a bit more complex. I wonder what the Gay Games do, because obviously they would have had to tackle this issue. (Anyone has info on that?)

I don't usually care for large sporting events, but this could be a good opportunity for gender-bending advocates to come up with some smart proposal to make the world move forward. It won't happen tomorrow but there might be a kernel of revolution in this situation. (I'm such an optimist.)

[BalaRoja]

So if she wore makeup, maybe sprinted in a skort this whole thing would not happen?

I seriously think this is a factor in the entire reaction to Semenya.

Because she isn't, let's say as 'feminine' (whatever that means) as her competitors, she does become an easier target for such allegations. I feel the 'gender' police - as in what is expected of a woman - is certainly out and making itself known in this case.

However there may be a definite reason why she isn't naturally as 'feminine' (again, a vague term but somewhat useful for discussion).

FWIW, after the reports came out about her being intersexed - I suspect she has partial, not complete AIS. Meaning that her system does somewhat respond to the increased testosterone that her testes produce and her body shows that relationship.

People with complete AIS tend to look different than those with partial AIS.

In fact there are various grades which cover the range of AIS, from complete AIS, to 6 grades of partial AIS (PAIS).

In complete AIS you'd have the following:

# Female body shape
# Large breasts with juvenile nipples
# Absent/scanty axillary and pubic hair
# No temporal hair recession (balding)
# Female external genitalia with small labia
# Blind-ending vagina
# Absent or rudimentary internal genitalia
# Gonads consistent histologically with cryptorchid testes
# Hyperplasia of interstitial cells: adenoma

Here's a bit more detail on what some of the various levels of AIS tend to correlate with:

1. Complete AIS (CAIS): completely female body except no uterus, fallopian tubes or ovaries; testes in the abdomen; minimal androgenic (pubic or axillary) hair at puberty.[5]

2. Partial or incomplete AIS (PAIS): male or female body, with slightly virilized genitalia or micropenis; testes in the abdomen; sparse to normal androgenic hair.[5]
Man with micropenis, hypogonadism and gynecomastia

3. Reifenstein syndrome: obviously ambiguous genitalia; small testes may be in abdomen or scrotum; sparse to normal androgenic hair; gynecomastia at puberty.[6]

4. Infertile male syndrome: normal male genitalia internally and externally; normal male body or possible female androgyny, normal virilization and androgenic hair; reduced sperm production; reduced fertility or infertility.[6]

5. Undervirilized fertile male syndrome: male internal and external genitalia with micropenis; testes in scrotum; normal androgenic hair; sperm count and fertility normal or reduced.[6]

6. X-linked spinal and bulbar muscular atrophy: normal or nearly normal male body and fertility; exaggerated adolescent gynecomastia; adult onset degenerative muscle disease.[7]

For those of you who are curious about someone with complete AIS, perhaps you've heard of Eden Atwood? A well known american jazz singer www.edenatwood.com

Interestingly enough, one of the usual hallmarks of complete AIS is no underarm/pubic hair.

Obviously we've seen that Semenya does have underarm hair - which in and of itself is nothing to comment on - but that, along with her bone structure and build, suggests is that she doesn't have complete AIS.

If she doesn't have complete AIS then she's almost certainly got partial AIS - meaning her body can and does use some of the extra testosterone. That could well mean she does have an advantage.

Why?

Because the IAAF has determined that testosterone is the key factor in determining an athlete's participation status as male or female.

Ultimately, much as many of you have said, I feel worst for Semenya. I can't help but think of a variety of ulterior motives that different people, be it the press, her handlers (not family, but athletic coaches/federation), etc all have in this. Semenya's a teen and this is terrible scrutiny to be put under and very harsh.

[Selkie]

I briefly saw a piece on one of the Saturday morning shows about this today. A doctor described Semenya's condition as a "birth defect" (not in a pejorative way, though). Someone, perhaps a journalist from SI, said that if they start screening and classifying athletes due to "genetic advantages," it would be akin to a dog show (different "breeds"). For example, those with a higher number of high-twitch muscle fibers in one group, those with fewer in another. Kind of a rough analogy but it makes one think.

I don't really have a strong opinion about this but I feel very bad for Semenya. I see her as a gifted athlete and hope she gets through all this with her dignity and self-esteem intact.

[colby]

Another Sociological Images post on Caster and her recent makeover in a South African magazine:

http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/0...s-performance/

They do include a comment at the end about how complicated it is.

[KnottedYet]

http://medindia.net/news/Gender-Row-...ch-58003-1.htm

Did no one expect her to try to commit suicide?

She should have been getting counselling from the very first second, and whoever leaked test results to the Australian media should be fired.

[Pax]

That poor child.