Bad husband! No nookie!

[Selkie]

Marriage is such hard work.... sigh.

Limewave, I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. I don't know what to tell you but I'm sending you lots of hugs.

I think Tulip is a smart cookie about the need for clear communication in relationships. DH and I just hit the 21 years of marriage mark last weekend---the road hasn't always been smooth but it has given both of us ample opportunity to grow and become better people/partners. Recognizing that you cannot and will not change someone is the key. Can you live with what the things you want to change or can you learn to accept them?

[Wahine]

Not that I'm an expert or anything but I do want to share a bit of my experience because I think it relates directly to these issues.

I was with my husband as a couple for 17 years. 9 cohabitating and 8 married. I left him September last year. What I've learned since I've left is that I did not express my needs or wants clearly with him. I would tell him something, he would blow it off and since I have always believed that the only persons behaviour you can change is your own, I modified my behaviour and would never express to him how his behaviour affected me. In my mind, I couldn't change him and I shouldn't expect him to. He is what he is. Eventually I had to leave because I couldn't live with him with things the way they were.

Since we have separated, he has told me so many times that he is so disappointed that I did not communicate what was bothering me well enough to give him a chance to realize how dire things were and to give him a chance to change.

I don't regret my decision. I think there were a lot of reasons that our marriage was not meant to last, though it was very good for many years. But I have learned that expressing exactly what it is that you need or want is very important. I am generalizing but I have to say that I think that men tend not to be as intuitive as women are and simply will not "get it" unless you spell it out very clearly. That means asking for what you want AND when things like this are going on, telling them how that made you feel and what your expectations were. And give the guy a chance to change. Maybe you have to remind him periodically... but don't we all need reminders about some things?

My new BF has told me to NEVER assume that he has any idea what I want or need and that he'd much rather me tell him clearly so that he can be the best he can be for me. I think that's a pretty good policy.

[DDH]

Well the way I see it, she expressed herself as to what she wanted, but the circumstances changed after they departed from each others company.

I agree that when he came home and saw that you were not there yet, he should have (in my opinion) called you to see where you were at the least.
I would think he would have been concerned about why you weren't home yet. Especially since he did not get your text.
Basically the way I see it, he owes you a heartfelt apology.

Unfortunately, Most Men, tend to be self serving first and then think about others, where Women tend to think of others first and then think about themselves, if there is time left to think about themselves.
This difference in behavior leads to many a fight between couples. Women think "why doesn't he think about me", and men think "ah she said she would be fine, I'm going to take a shower".

[Crankin]

I am going to play the devil's advocate, too. It seems like this is a communication problem. Nobody can be expected to "know" what you want them to do, unless you explicitly tell them. We all have different communication styles and the way we learn to use them is from our family of origin.
I don't buy this "men are this way, women are that way" thing. We are all different. My husband does not automatically think of himself first, but on the other hand, I can categorically say that I don't put others first all the time, either. Women are socialized to do that... whether it's right or wrong, is up for us each to decide, but I decided a long time ago that taking care of myself was the most important thing I could do. This was after a horrible first marriage that wrecked my self esteem and sanity. You may think this is selfish, but if I didn't take care of me, than what good would I be as a partner or a parent?
Since I am coming upon my 30th anniversary, I think my strategy has worked.
I also think Limewave and Tuckerville know what they need to do; it might not be easy, but they are on the right track.

[channlluv]

{{{Tuckerville}}} and {{{Limewave}}}

I can relate to both your stories. D*H and I have had a really rocky road the last several years. We've been together for 15, married for 14. We have one beautiful daughter, but I've lost three to miscarriage, and there were two more positive home tests, but they didn't last long enough to be counted as official pregnancies.

We've had, and do have, serious financial issues, and recently he's decided that he's not feeling connected enough to me to continue trying to make our marriage work. Maybe he's right. Marriage is really, really hard sometimes.

It's breaking my heart. So yeah, I get both of you.

Here's to an easier path home for all of us.

Roxy

[Tri Girl]

Hugs to all of you dealing with stressful marriages or break-ups of marriage. I pray it gets better (whatever that may be for you).

Karen- I would have been upset, too. Even tho I would have done the same as you (go on- I'm fine), I still would have liked for him to call and check on me if I wasn't home when he got home. Even tho you may not have been crystal clear, it would have been nice for him to at least see if you were OK since you weren't home.
I guess it's a good thing, but my DH doesn't stress if I'm not home when I say I'll be. One time I was an hour later than I told him I'd be on my bike ride, and he didn't even think twice about it. If it were the other way around, I'd have been calling him to see if he was OK. I guess we really ARE from two different planets.

[mudmucker]

I am generalizing but I have to say that I think that men tend not to be as intuitive as women are and simply will not "get it" unless you spell it out very clearly.

Yes! This has been my experience in communicating with men exactly. And I have been dating for 32 years.

We've had, and do have, serious financial issues, and recently he's decided that he's not feeling connected enough to me to continue trying to make our marriage work.

It's breaking my heart.

Ach. Gosh you guys. Now one more...

{{{Tuckerville}}} and {{{Limewave}}} and {{{Channnlluv}}}

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

But I have learned that expressing exactly what it is that you need or want is very important. I am generalizing but I have to say that I think that men tend not to be as intuitive as women are and simply will not "get it" unless you spell it out very clearly....
...My new BF has told me to NEVER assume that he has any idea what I want or need and that he'd much rather me tell him clearly so that he can be the best he can be for me. I think that's a pretty good policy.

Yes, that policy works very well for my husband and me. We are very clear with each other, going both ways. We've worked hard at doing this, and it's worth it. No one can be expected to be a mind reader.

[Mr. Bloom]

indigoiis +1

FWIW: Silver feels very capable when she's on the road and gets upset if I get concerned. She'll call if she needs help...but it's hard for me to NOT do what you expected Mr. T to do...but I would have gotten the dickens if I did

As mysterious as men may be to women...sometimes vice versa applies as well

[OakLeaf]

No advice, just hugs to all three of you.

[Kris]

Hugs to all three of you from me too.

The first year we were married, (33 years ago) I had to give DH some serious lessons in apologizing. He didn't think it was necessary, or didn't want to admit that much fault, or something. I insisted that he apologize for problems. The one I specifically remember was him coming home hours later than expected. He thought the explanation of what he had been doing was enough, no apology needed. Wrong. So then he knew that he was supposed to apologize when he messed up, but he'd say something like, "I'm sorry you got upset about it." Arrrrgghhh! That was even worse, because it seemed to be putting the blame on me. It took several lessons, plus some modeling on my part, but eventually he started getting it right, and now we can laugh about it. He would never buy a truck without getting to consensus, though. That's a whole nother situation, and I agree it needs some professional help.

[MartianDestiny]

indigoiis +1

FWIW: Silver feels very capable when she's on the road and gets upset if I get concerned. She'll call if she needs help...but it's hard for me to NOT do what you expected Mr. T to do...but I would have gotten the dickens if I did

As mysterious as men may be to women...sometimes vice versa applies as well

I'm the same way as Silver apparently. If I don't call you and say "call 911" or "come get me", or I don't leave specific instructions to "call if you don't hear from me by XXX", then I'm fine, leave me the heck alone and don't you DARE call and ask "still ok?". I can take care of my own darn self.

I feel for Tuckerville. Obviously we all work differently and there was a combination of communication failure and a "brain fall out of head" moment and it's unfortunate.

Small wonder men don't get us though

[Grog]

Big slow hugs to the three of you. Much love and courage your way.

[indigoiis]

I DO think men and women think differently. My husband often has no clue when I am upset or disappointed in him - and when I back him into a corner over a little misunderstanding, it usually results in no change, only more disappointment. So I get it. I try to be clear and try to give him some peace, and some slack, and he generally tries to be more considerate (because I have asked him to be.)

I love the following story. It's funny but it is also very true.

---

The Differences Between Men and Women
> --------------------------------------
>
> Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine. He
> asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time. A
> few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy
> themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after a
> while neither one of them is seeing anybody else.
>
> And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to
> Elaine, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: "Do you
> realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly
> six months?"
>
> And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very
> loud silence. She thinks to herself: Gee, I wonder if it bothers him
> that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our
> relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of
> obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of.
>
> And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months.
>
> And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of
> relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so
> I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going
> the way we are, moving steadily toward . . . I mean, where are we
> going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of
> intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a
> lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I
> really even know this person?
>
> And Roger is thinking: ... so that means it was ... let's see ...
> February when we started going out, which was right after I had the
> car at the dealer's, which means ... lemme check the odometer ...
> Whoa! I am way overdue for an oil change here.
>
> And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe
> I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our
> relationship, more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed --
> even before I sensed it -- that I was feeling some reservations. Yes,
> I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about
> his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected.
>
> And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the
> transmission again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not
> shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold
> weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this
> thing is shifting like a stinking garbage truck, and I paid those
> incompetent thieves $600.
>
> And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be
> angry, too. God, I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I
> can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure.
>
> And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90- day
> warranty. That's exactly what they're gonna say, the scumballs.
>
> And Elaine is thinking: maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a
> knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right
> next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person
> I truly do care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A
> person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic
> fantasy.
>
> And Roger is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them
> a worthless warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up
> their .... .
>
> "Roger," Elaine says aloud.
>
> "What?" says Roger, startled.
>
> "Please don't torture yourself like this," she says, her eyes
> beginning to brim with tears. "Maybe I should never have ... Oh God, I
> feel so ... so ..." (She breaks down, sobbing.)
>
> "What?" says Roger.
>
> "I'm such a fool," Elaine sobs. "I mean, I know there's no knight. I
> really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no
> horse."
>
> "There's no horse?" says Roger.
>
> "You think I'm a fool, don't you?" Elaine says.
>
> "No!" says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer.
>
> "It's just that ... It's that I ... I need some time," Elaine says.
>
> (There is a 15-second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can,
> tries to come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one
> that he thinks might work.)
>
> "Yes," he says.
>
> (Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.)
>
> "Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?" she says.
>
> "What way?" says Roger.
>
> "That way about time," says Elaine.
>
> "Oh," says Roger. "Yes."
>
> (Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him
> to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it
> involves a horse. At last she speaks.)
>
> "Thank you, Roger," she says.
>
> "Thank you," says Roger.
>
> Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted,
> tortured soul, and weeps until dawn, whereas when Roger gets back to
> his place, he opens a bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately
> becomes deeply involved in a rerun of a tennis match between two
> Czechoslovakians he never heard of. A tiny voice in the far recesses
> of his mind tells him that something major was going on back there in
> the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he would ever
> understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think
> about it. (This is also Roger's policy regarding world hunger.)
>
> The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of
> them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours.
> In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and
> everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every
> word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering
> every possible ramification. They will continue to discuss this
> subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any
> definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either.
>
> Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual
> friend of his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown, and
> say: "Norm, did Elaine ever own a horse?"

[Ana]

My new BF has told me to NEVER assume that he has any idea what I want or need and that he'd much rather me tell him clearly so that he can be the best he can be for me. I think that's a pretty good policy.

I think many people struggle with communicating their needs and wants to others, especially since it's so obvious to ourselves (inside our heads). It takes a lot of effort to remember to outwardly communicate things that seem obvious to ourselves. It's the kind of thing where it is often better to overcommunicate rather than undercommunicate.

Culturally, I believe men are not as accustomed to using language to express themselves. Additionally, male-to-male communication oftentimes directly include their immediate feedback or wants (sometimes lacking tact or finesse...).