"Unfair Genetic Advantage"

[Tuckervill]

Glad you didn't ignore me (wouldn't have accomplished much...) AND I'm glad you did respond (I welcome discussion/debate about contrary views).


Mimi, that's interesting since I recall you're Italian...and I am too. Frankly, it's been my experience that Italians tend to be viewed as "2nd Class" among "Caucasian" people...add to that the fact that I'm "vertically challenged" and not athletic makes me an additional potential object of scorn among my own gender. I don't feel that I have had any advantage except that I was by God's grace adopted by loving parents at the age of 4 days, was well educated, graduated in the top 10% of my class AND practiced HARD to interview well.

At the core, even the most challenged have found the road to success...

A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege Owning unearned white privilege

Karen

[OakLeaf]

And another one.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/...%20connect.htm

[Biciclista]

Italians were not considered white at one time, this is true. But they are now.
The fact that people were crowing about Scalia being the first Italian supreme court justice is proof that someone is still paying attention. And being married to a W.A.S.P. makes my Italian-ness not obvious anyway.
I'm talking about the way I have been treated compared to people who are Black or Asian. I've always been pretty sensitive to these things.
this is from Life Magazine 1911

[Mr. Bloom]

I'm talking about the way I have been treated compared to people who are Black or Asian. I've always been pretty sensitive to these things.

Understood

However, I believe we're much closer to a world of people succeeding on merit than we were 30 years ago. I believe that, because I see it everyday and believe it's time to push forward and not back...

But, I'll let it rest. Sorry for the hijack.

[papaver]

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21622252/

[witeowl]

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21622252/

So all our wailing and gnashing of teeth about discrimination based on appearance may have been based on naught...

Tests carried out before the start of the World Athletics Championships proved the 800m gold medallist had very high levels of the male hormone, according to sources close to the investigation.

It is believed this information led to the IAAF's decision to ask the South African athletics body to carry out a detailed "gender verification" test on the athlete.

Well, it was an interesting intellectual exercise nonetheless.

[smilingcat]

I really feel for Semenya. I think I would be crushed if media started in on me to say hey that's a man there!! A wolf in sheep's clothing to get on a podium.

My understanding is that IOC has dropped karyotyping because lot of women came up as XXY? or XY female???

So if you look like a dude, have dude parts, and XY obviously you can't compete in women's category.

But if you are XY female or XXY or mosaic, are they allowed??

The other thing too is that what was her name Merriam Bagger? the semi- or professional golfer who had the sex change operation to become a woman. I thought LPGA as allowing her to compete. so XY with sex change can compete.

I looked up on "intersex" on the internet and came to a non-profit organization on intersex. Reading some of the explanations just made me more confused. I thought your body chromosome were uniform but this isn't so in person who is mosaic. they could have XX for part of their body and XY in another. and they were talking about androgen insensitivity where no amount of testosterone will make you masculine and so XY could end up looking like a girl. Pretty strange stuff...

so where do we draw the line??

some girls are born without uterus... so specifying need for it will exclude them.
has to be XX chromosome will exclude some women.
has to have female genitals... will a guy could have a sex change surgery...
and how much testosterone is too much??

I am too illiterate in this area to speak on this matter. And let the officials and medical experts decide. And I sure wish the stupid media stops hyping the story and let the poor girl alone.

[GLC1968]

Apparently tests have shown that her male hormone levels are 3 times higher than normal

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-21622252/

At the bottom of that article, it says that a man's testosterone is 40 to 60 times that of a woman. Should only 3 times as much really be enough to disqualify someone?

[Thorn]

In 1996, 8 female athletes tested XXY. All were allowed to continue competing. The cases were not made public. Semenya's was leaked to the press.

Reuter's summary
http://www.reuters.com/article/sport...dChannel=11611

Interesting historical document
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...erTesting.html



Oh, and Mr. Silver, take Karen (Tuckerville)'s advice. Read the articles. She took the time to find them for you, take the time to read them. You may find them enlightening.

[KnottedYet]

Normal Average testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.6-0.7 nmol/L

Normal Range of testosterone for a pre-menopausal female: 0.2-2.9 nmol/L

[Tuckervill]

Understood

However, I believe we're much closer to a world of people succeeding on merit than we were 30 years ago. I believe that, because I see it everyday and believe it's time to push forward and not back...

But, I'll let it rest. Sorry for the hijack.

But did you read the links?

Do yourself a favor and read the links.

You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.

Karen

[Biciclista]

But did you read the links?

Do yourself a favor and read the links.

You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.

Karen

Thanks for those links, Karen!

[witeowl]

Do yourself a favor and read the links.

You can't push forward until you acknowledge the past.

I skimmed them, and they're the same stuff I've known and was "learned" (how do you learn something you already know?) in certain classes at the university.

I used to use an analogy to people claiming that everyone has the same opportunity to succeed, pointing to people who successfully pulled themselves out of ghettos, both figurative and literal. The analogy involved two runners (seriously), one with a flat course to run and one with obstacles (puddles to slosh through, hills to climb, stuff to crawl under). In this race, can the one running the obstacle course win? Sure, some particularly talented people would end up successful no matter what. But, overall, it's clear that the runners on the smooth course have a distinct advantage. You can't point at the few obstacle course winners and say, "See? Equal opportunity!"

Nevertheless, that said, I'll respond to your closing remark with:

You can't move forward while you're only looking behind you.

[lph]

A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege Owning unearned white privilege

Karen

These links were excellent.

I was reminded of when I was 18 or 19, and returning home from travelling alone in Eastern Europe, mostly hiking in the mountains in Romania. I had met and seen so many people with vastly reduced choices compared to me, and been met with everything from adulation to hostility. I remember very vividly the feeling of stepping onto the air-conditioned, clean, quiet, well-functioning train home, and realizing how massively privileged I was.

[Mr. Bloom]

A couple of links for you, Mr. Silver. white privilege Owning unearned white privilege

Karen

Since you asked, yes. But, I disagree with the basic premise, because:
- I cannot change how others feel...I am responsible for me
- I cannot change the past, I can only observe and be a catalyst of change in the present

I believe that NOTHING is accomplished by focusing on the past...we have to acknowledge it, but we have to constantly do gut checks in the present to assure that we are fair in the HERE and NOW.

Back to the topic of this thread - I believe it is unfair and unjust to isolate natural hormone levels as an unfair advantage WHEN we would not isolate other genetic or physical attributes as being unfair. I went to high school with a guy who was 7'1"...he was not athletic, but he started playing basketball in his Junior year and HIS HEIGHT got him a full ride scholarship to college. Was that unfair...NO WAY. If she had a sex change or resorted to other unnatural methods, I'd say kick her out...but don't penalize herself for being blessed.

ETA: I originally objected to the raising of race because there is no evidence to support that bias and as others subsequently pointed out, there is precedent for other races/nationalities being challenged with this same thing. When we look for prejudice where none exists, then we are spending too much time looking back and that will prevent us from moving forward.