"Unfair Genetic Advantage"

[KnottedYet]

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

[Trek420]

I dunno dear. I've never experienced being fast at anything

But I recall though I can not find the direct quote but the amazing Flo Jo has written about wanting to be considered a woman and an athlete. Try to forget the flashy outfits, she sometimes wore lace, the flowing hair, the long elaborate nails .... and watch her run.

Pure speed. Looks like nobody is even in the same race.
Power
Form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q9_N...eature=related

If she wasn't dressed to the nines would someone be asking: She must have an unfair genetic advantage?

Women athletes and girls should be able to compete based on skill and strength and not how we look.

If I want to get all dolled up fine, if not, also fine.

I question what message this sends to young women and girls "If you're strong and not feminine you aren't a girl"

[Mr. Bloom]

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

Knot: I think everyone agrees the situation is unfair...I think we believe the cause is different... likely because of different life's experiences and perspectives.

[channlluv]

Wasn't there a similar situation when Martina Navratilova and Chrissy Evert were competing? Martina is decidedly more masculine than Chrissy, and regularly womped on people on the tennis court, but their rivalry was pretty close, wasn't it? Maybe it's not a good analogy.

DH was showing me a video online of Semenya talking. She does have a very deep voice, but so do a lot of women, our niece included. And there are a lot of women who are more masculine than others, my cousin included. They're not all world-class athletes, though, with major endorsement deals in their futures.

How can someone's testosterone levels be artificially lowered for the purposes of testing? That seems like cheating to me, if that's what they did. I wonder if that's proved, if they'd disqualify her for falsifying tests, regardless of what her genetic makeup is.

Roxy

[Cataboo]

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

It's completely understandable, and I always had really long hair, so being mistaken for a boy never happened, and I only run if big hairy predators are chasing me.

I find it highly unfair that they would announce any of this publicly... If they want to test her sex privately, that would be between them and her...

But to question the sexuality of a 17 year old girl worldwide is beyond ridiculous, and the sort of thing that I hope they have to pay punitive damages for eventually.

When I was typing on here that I remember learning that they did genetic testing on all olympic athletes in high school biology, I remembered the other thing we "learned" That Jamie Lee Curtis was XXY....

I went ahead and googled that before writing it, and apparently while it is a widespread rumor that is taught in many medical schools as fact, there is no actual proof of that statement or anything like that. However, once the rumor got started, it just spread and is blithely accepted as fact...

[Trek420]

Pro athletes are tested every day, every race in every way shape and form. I don't think tests or the amount they are tested or which tests should be based on appearance. I don't think anyone says "well Lance was looking unusually strong today. Let's have him pee in a cup"

As women we're hard enough on ourselves and each other over the issue of appearance. Where is the thread in which we discuss how to maintain that image of fragile femininity when hammering so hard you puke

As athletes, and being over 50, overweight, under height and considering myself an athlete is odd, I am one. Anyway I don't think folks who don't work out and also most men can understand the real daily push and pull this is for women. Strength, beauty, strength, beauty, strength ..... short hair, helmet hair, let it grow, helmet hair, make up, keeping it fresh and riding till you toss cookies ....

Male athletes of any level or sport (we love 'em) but you don't go through this. Faster, higher, stronger .... that's about it.

I'm old enough to remember their being just few images of women athletes. I'm glad especially for younger women and girls that if they want to be just strong, just really strong like Semenya they have that image, if they want the image of speed and ultra style like Flo Jo they have that too, just a couple of examples.

[witeowl]

Knot: I think everyone agrees the situation is unfair...I think we believe the cause is different... likely because of different life's experiences and perspectives.

Well put.

By the way, this is, apparently not unprecedented in track. I just watched a CNN blurb on the story, and this has occurred to a number of female athletes in track and field. One woman from India was actually stripped of her medal, and a Polish sprinter was "only" banned from competing professionally.

[OakLeaf]

That fictitious girl is based on a real event...
Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer. His story is in Chapter 4 of the book "Intersex" by Catherine Harper. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMfrBWM7_A

drift: the book about Reimer's life is fascinating and heartbreaking.

[OakLeaf]

I question what message this sends to young women and girls "If you're strong and not feminine you aren't a girl"

My husband's 17-year-old niece, yesterday, discussing Semenya [spoken as though this fact were proof that she's really a he]:

"She's got ABS!!!"

[Trek420]

My husband's 17-year-old niece, yesterday, discussing Semenya [spoken as though this fact were proof that she's really a he]:

"She's got ABS!!!"

Name one world class sprinter male or female who doesn't? And no subcutaneous body fat so you see every muscle fiber twitching. As I watched the video of Flo Jo I reflected she's got muscles I did not know existed. That thing at the outside top of the quad? What's that? I don't have that muscle. ;-)

Sprinters as we know from watching bike racing are weight lifters in motion. It's all power to weight ratio.

[OakLeaf]

Name one world class sprinter male or female who doesn't?

Pretty much what I said to her, except I said "athlete" instead of "sprinter." Cripes, we all know that swimmers have more body fat than any other athletes, and we've all seen Dara Torres' six-pack.

[Trek420]

Yes, and her biceps and her quads and her delts and near total lack of bQQbs and have you seen her lats???? ...... but she's a Mom so nobody gives her any guff nor questions her femininity.

So I ask is a woman athlete at the elite level held to a different standard than men that one obviously has to be strong enough to compete at that level yet look girly somehow. Are there any of us here at any level that we ride (and some here are competitive so I'd love to hear the pro's and semi pro chime in) who have felt this as a conflict.

And if you don't feel it's any conflict how do you juggle strength/power and femininity?

[shootingstar]

Anyway I don't think folks who don't work out and also most men can understand the real daily push and pull this is for women. Strength, beauty, strength, beauty, strength ..... short hair, helmet hair, let it grow, helmet hair, make up, keeping it fresh and riding till you toss cookies ....

Male athletes of any level or sport (we love 'em) but you don't go through this. Faster, higher, stronger .... that's about it.

I'm old enough to remember their being just few images of women athletes. I'm glad especially for younger women and girls that if they want to be just strong, just really strong like Semenya they have that image, if they want the image of speed and ultra style like Flo Jo they have that too, just a couple of examples.

+1

Hopefully whatever the outcome for this 18 yr. old athletic star, she will have unconditional support from her loved ones who have known her the longest..for years ahead.

Of course, her upper body fit physicality and perceived flat-chest ....I am willing to bet you that quite a number of women with small or near-non-existent developed mature breasts don't wear the crop tight track tanktops precisely because it flattens them out. Those things do great things to me in the change room....I look like a 11 yr. old up top, not 50 yr. Same effect for a one piece swimming suit.

I'm hoping all this negative hoorah from competition judges...may be wrong. Maybe we'll see more women just wear it for comfort/speed, etc. instead of being concerned about looking masculine/butch.

Alot of women's faces if they cut their hair very short or have it all pulled back from face...would make them look quite masculine..plus forgetting to pluck/bleach facial hair.

Chanelluv: By the way, with your new avatar pic, you look totally different without the helmet and sunglasses. I had a different image of you altogether.

How wrong we can be!

[Thorn]

Sorry for the hijack...but don't make race an issue in this That's really off topic, and while it may be a part of your life's experience, it would be unfair to generalize it into this situation.

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009...dominates.html

Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.

Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.

Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.

[shootingstar]

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009...dominates.html

Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.

Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.

Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.

Important Mr. Silver to understand it is within living memory of non-white women who are older here, that it wasn't until around the late 1970's and onward, where we started to see alot more non-white female models in fashion publications here in North America. It's when marketers woke up and realized the demographics of their audience /potential customer base in North America. I keep on saying North America, because as a teenager I would see the fashion magazines from Hong Kong with their Chinese/Asian models and wonder why on earth people like them were not showing up in English language media.

There is a subtle standard certainly in the fashion world, acting/drama world and in popular women's spectator sports involving womanly grace (ie. figure skating, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, ballet, dance etc.), that beauty/what is considered womanly is: long legs, tall, female-looking face preferably with "refined features of lips not too thick, etc., beautiful skin, breasts, narrow waist, a bum not too big, etc.

Thankfully the beauty /womanly desirable standard now is bit more "elastic" these days, but not a whole lot.

If you don't believe me...then here is a story:
Last year, one of engineers from Philippines she complained to me she was getting too dark from all the sun here at our construction site. She said didn't look nice on her. STILL, having paler/whiter skin is seen as better than something richer in hue.

This woman was university educated and over 35.