"Unfair Genetic Advantage"

[witeowl]

The motivation seems to be based on her appearance. When strangers directing her to men's restrooms and a school principal who thought she was a boy for years are used as evidence in the media that she shouldn't be allowed to race... hmmm.

I don't think her appearance is motivation so much as it's a logical direction to look. Budd didn't have the muscularity, the chin, the facial hair, or, let's face it, the masculine chest. People aren't looking at her genetics because she's "unattractive", they're looking at her genetics because it's a logical place to look.

There is a reason that men and women compete separately in most sports. Men simply have a natural advantage in most sports. It goes beyond testosterone, by the way. They have more blood volume, even at the same weight and height. Did you know that? I just learned that recently when donating blood and realizing that, if I were a man, I could do a double donation at my height/weight, but I'd have to be much taller to give a double donation as a woman. When asked, it really boiled down to blood volume. And we all know how beneficial those little red oxygen carriers are to the athlete, right?

I haven't seen anyone in the media or elsewhere say that she shouldn't compete. I also haven't seen anyone say that she should compete. It's an absolute quagmire.

Did anyone else see that episode of Mental, where a high school girl felt like she was two different people? It turned out that there was an accident during her infancy (I think it was during the circumcision) and the parents (with the help of a selfish psychiatrist) decided to raise their son as a daughter. Coincidentally enough, she was a high school track star. Had this fictitious girl pursued her career, should she have been allowed to compete in the Olympics? I don't know, but it's food for thought. At least, in considering that situation, it's purely hypothetical.

I'm inclined to say that a person should compete based on whatever genitalia he or she had at birth. Others would disagree with me. And even this seemingly clear-cut rule doesn't answer to all possible scenarios.

The only thing I know for sure is that I'm glad to be able to make hypothetical judgments from my computer keyboard rather than having to make any official call in this situation.

[KnottedYet]

I don't think her appearance is motivation so much as it's a logical direction to look. Budd didn't have the muscularity, the chin, the facial hair, or, let's face it, the masculine chest. People aren't looking at her genetics because she's "unattractive", they're looking at her genetics because it's a logical place to look.

Exactly my point. I'm so glad you agree with me.

If she looked cute by current standards, no one would have a "logical direction to look." They'd simply have to accept the fact that this human with female genitalia can kick *** on the track.

Just like Budd.

[witeowl]

Exactly my point. I'm so glad you agree with me.

If she looked cute by current standards, no one would have a "logical direction to look." They'd simply have to accept the fact that this human with female genitalia can kick *** on the track.

Just like Budd.

OK, but you think it's a bad thing, while I just think it's a thing.

Her masculine appearance is a marker of what people are suspecting. Without the masculine appearance, it doesn't make sense to investigate that possibility.

If someone breaks into my car, cuts his or her hand on the glass, bleeds all over the interior, and steals my radio, and I run into a person who has a stereo just like my old one and a bandage on his hand, am I wrong to call the police?

(I know it's an imperfect analogy because one involves an intentionally dishonest act and the other does not, but you get my gist.)

[Mr. Bloom]

Without the masculine appearance, it doesn't make sense to investigate that possibility.

+1 Precisely - it's nothing more than that.

[KnottedYet]

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

[Trek420]

I dunno dear. I've never experienced being fast at anything

But I recall though I can not find the direct quote but the amazing Flo Jo has written about wanting to be considered a woman and an athlete. Try to forget the flashy outfits, she sometimes wore lace, the flowing hair, the long elaborate nails .... and watch her run.

Pure speed. Looks like nobody is even in the same race.
Power
Form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q9_N...eature=related

If she wasn't dressed to the nines would someone be asking: She must have an unfair genetic advantage?

Women athletes and girls should be able to compete based on skill and strength and not how we look.

If I want to get all dolled up fine, if not, also fine.

I question what message this sends to young women and girls "If you're strong and not feminine you aren't a girl"

[OakLeaf]

I question what message this sends to young women and girls "If you're strong and not feminine you aren't a girl"

My husband's 17-year-old niece, yesterday, discussing Semenya [spoken as though this fact were proof that she's really a he]:

"She's got ABS!!!"

[Mr. Bloom]

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

Knot: I think everyone agrees the situation is unfair...I think we believe the cause is different... likely because of different life's experiences and perspectives.

[channlluv]

Wasn't there a similar situation when Martina Navratilova and Chrissy Evert were competing? Martina is decidedly more masculine than Chrissy, and regularly womped on people on the tennis court, but their rivalry was pretty close, wasn't it? Maybe it's not a good analogy.

DH was showing me a video online of Semenya talking. She does have a very deep voice, but so do a lot of women, our niece included. And there are a lot of women who are more masculine than others, my cousin included. They're not all world-class athletes, though, with major endorsement deals in their futures.

How can someone's testosterone levels be artificially lowered for the purposes of testing? That seems like cheating to me, if that's what they did. I wonder if that's proved, if they'd disqualify her for falsifying tests, regardless of what her genetic makeup is.

Roxy

[Trek420]

Pro athletes are tested every day, every race in every way shape and form. I don't think tests or the amount they are tested or which tests should be based on appearance. I don't think anyone says "well Lance was looking unusually strong today. Let's have him pee in a cup"

As women we're hard enough on ourselves and each other over the issue of appearance. Where is the thread in which we discuss how to maintain that image of fragile femininity when hammering so hard you puke

As athletes, and being over 50, overweight, under height and considering myself an athlete is odd, I am one. Anyway I don't think folks who don't work out and also most men can understand the real daily push and pull this is for women. Strength, beauty, strength, beauty, strength ..... short hair, helmet hair, let it grow, helmet hair, make up, keeping it fresh and riding till you toss cookies ....

Male athletes of any level or sport (we love 'em) but you don't go through this. Faster, higher, stronger .... that's about it.

I'm old enough to remember their being just few images of women athletes. I'm glad especially for younger women and girls that if they want to be just strong, just really strong like Semenya they have that image, if they want the image of speed and ultra style like Flo Jo they have that too, just a couple of examples.

[witeowl]

Knot: I think everyone agrees the situation is unfair...I think we believe the cause is different... likely because of different life's experiences and perspectives.

Well put.

By the way, this is, apparently not unprecedented in track. I just watched a CNN blurb on the story, and this has occurred to a number of female athletes in track and field. One woman from India was actually stripped of her medal, and a Polish sprinter was "only" banned from competing professionally.

[Cataboo]

Am I the only woman on this thread who ran competitive track, broke records by large margins, and got mistaken for a boy?

Is it understandable that I would see the unfairness in Semenya's situation?

It's completely understandable, and I always had really long hair, so being mistaken for a boy never happened, and I only run if big hairy predators are chasing me.

I find it highly unfair that they would announce any of this publicly... If they want to test her sex privately, that would be between them and her...

But to question the sexuality of a 17 year old girl worldwide is beyond ridiculous, and the sort of thing that I hope they have to pay punitive damages for eventually.

When I was typing on here that I remember learning that they did genetic testing on all olympic athletes in high school biology, I remembered the other thing we "learned" That Jamie Lee Curtis was XXY....

I went ahead and googled that before writing it, and apparently while it is a widespread rumor that is taught in many medical schools as fact, there is no actual proof of that statement or anything like that. However, once the rumor got started, it just spread and is blithely accepted as fact...

[KnottedYet]

Did anyone else see that episode of Mental, where a high school girl felt like she was two different people? It turned out that there was an accident during her infancy (I think it was during the circumcision) and the parents (with the help of a selfish psychiatrist) decided to raise their son as a daughter. Coincidentally enough, she was a high school track star. Had this fictitious girl pursued her career, should she have been allowed to compete in the Olympics? I don't know, but it's food for thought. At least, in considering that situation, it's purely hypothetical.

That fictitious girl is based on a real event. It was with identical twin boys, and a cauterization accident during circumcision. The doctors "made" one of the boys into a girl. "She" had problems and identity issues her whole life, which only made sense once she got the truth. She then transitioned to the man she's always felt she was. Time magazine had a large and well documented article about intersexed people a few years ago.

Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer. His story is in Chapter 4 of the book "Intersex" by Catherine Harper. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMfrBWM7_A

[witeowl]

That fictitious girl is based on a real event.

Interesting. I assumed that there was inspiration in reality (isn't there always?), but I didn't realize just how closely it hit. Still, the possibility of that fictitious future track star, assuming she did not decide to identify as male, leaves a lot to be considered, does it not?

[KnottedYet]

Still, the possibility of that fictitious future track star, assuming she did not decide to identify as male, leaves a lot to be considered, does it not?

That's where the link to info about Janet Furman Bowman I posted earlier comes in.