"Unfair Genetic Advantage"

[Cataboo]

I had actually already thought that it was standard practice to test athletes for the XXY or other variations just because we went over this debate in high school biology. But I guess it never got implemented. There are some other adrenal conditions that even if you are genetically female disqualify you as competing as a female...


The olympics also disqualifies legless people from running with their artificial legs because they have an unfair advantage...

[Eden]

I had actually already thought that it was standard practice to test athletes for the XXY or other variations just because we went over this debate in high school biology. But I guess it never got implemented. There are some other adrenal conditions that even if you are genetically female disqualify you as competing as a female...


The olympics also disqualifies legless people from running with their artificial legs because they have an unfair advantage...

There was a bit on NPR about this case this morning. There was at one point regular sex testing, but because it became such a difficult question - what truly does constitute being "male" or being "female" they ended up having to discontinue it. Determining sex for someone who is ambiguous can go so far beyond primary sexual characteristics - looking like a male or a female, even beyond chomosomal make up that it became impossible to even define sex, much less test for it.....

It does lead to really difficult questions doesn't it - I don't think anyone can deny that there are definitely differences between men and women physically. Even though our best female cyclists around here can beat a great many of the guys, the best guys will still always beat them.

[Mr. Bloom]

Determining sex for someone who is ambiguous can go so far beyond primary sexual characteristics - looking like a male or a female, even beyond chomosomal make up that it became impossible to even define sex, much less test for it.....

It's the same with DNA, now that they have documented cases of human chimera - people with two distinct and separate DNA compositions in various (but unknown) parts of their body.

I think that the blending of science and sport has gone way too far.

PS: I'd love to have her bulging biceps and triceps on me! My goodness, she looks strong!

[Thorn]

Don't get me started--just because she doesn't conform to society's (and, let's face it, pretty much white society's) standard for female appearance, she's assumed to be a man. Sad. Sad.

Gender has gray zones. Despite what we'd like to believe, gender is a continuum. As one article I read stated...we'd like to believe that nature makes two nice buckets of people: male and female, but, you know, nature is a slob and it isn't the case.

I thought this essay put it nicely...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/sp...semenya&st=cse

[OakLeaf]

I agree with nearly all of what's been said. The trouble is, it leads down a road most of us probably don't want to go down. If there isn't a bright line between male and female (which I agree there isn't), should there be separate competitive categories for men and women? And if not, where does that leave the talented women athletes - including Semenya - who simply didn't develop with the same amount of testosterone as those whom we consider "men"?

[alpinerabbit]

It's unfair for the individual - it's happened before and people had to give up their careers - but it's also unfair to the other women if an elevated testosterone level helped her develop to the level she's competing at.

Apparently the South African athletic association was aware of it (they already did a test this spring) and they even have an Ex-GDR coach who was involved in steroid doping back in the GDR days, and it is presumed that her testosterone levels were artificially reduced before competitions to evade tests.

By the way (this is really mean but what a coincidence) - her name is an anagram of Yes a secret man...

[KnottedYet]

Colby asked: "And what are transgendered people (especially MtF) really to do? Not compete at all? Is their inherent genetic "advantage" really an advantage after hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery? Any moreso than a statistically tall/athletic woman born a woman?"

That question was pretty neatly answered by the experience of Janet Furman Bowman.

Janet Furman Bowman was a pretty serious competitive runner (and kept excellent records) when she was a man, and continued running after she became a woman.

Her experience of the level of effort was the same, though her times dropped enormously. But, within the women's category she was in the same percentile as when she raced in the men's category.

No advantage to having been male for several decades. www.pfc.org.uk/files/A_Six_Minute_Difference.pdf

If Semenya isn't doping or cheating, if her body is naturally as powerful as it is during these races, then I just don't see how disqualifying her for the way God made her can at all be fair.

ETA: I liked some of the comments on slashdot. Two in particular. The idea that athletic competition is divided into "definitely female" and "everyone else." (making the division meaningless anyway) Also the idea that all competitive athletes have advantages over "normal" people, that's why they are competitive athletes; so why kick out a competitive athlete who naturally has an advantage over other competitive athletes? I bookmarked slashdot, lots of fun nerd stuff there!

[Mr. Bloom]

(and, let's face it, pretty much white society's) standard for female appearance

Sorry for the hijack...but don't make race an issue in this That's really off topic, and while it may be a part of your life's experience, it would be unfair to generalize it into this situation.

[KnottedYet]

We women have a pretty good idea of the standards our appearance are compared against.

Take a look at the phenomena of "Good Hair" and all the effort put into it. Chris Rock is even making a movie about it, based on his daughter's distress over her hair.

Straight, long, smooth hair is a natural occurance for only a small portion of the female population... but it is a standard held up to be met.

Hair is just one example, and I only use it for illustrative purposes.

I think Thorn has a very good point.

If Semenya's appearance met different standards, would her performance be so profoundly questioned? (is anyone old enough to remember Zola Budd?)

[witeowl]

Straight, long, smooth hair is a natural occurance for only a small portion of the female population... but it is a standard held up to be met.

Funny, but I remember paying a lot of money to have my hair permed into "spirals" a couple of decades ago.

Fashion and styles change. What is considered beautiful changes.

For a while, pale skin (as in never saw daylight) was considered attractive (because the elite upper class had the luxury of not having to go out and make a living), then people began tanning to be pretty (because the elite upper class had the luxury of spending hours by the poolside).

It used to be that overweight women were the ideal (again, haves vs. have-nots), and then we were down to stick thin. I think right now we're somewhere in the middle (but closer to Twiggy than Rubenesque).

On another forum, I asked whether Olympian Tara Kirk should try to cover or hide her strong arms and shoulders. (She was very actively trying to do this very thing on an episode of What Not to Wear.) I thought she should show them off. I was fascinated to see that, even on a board full of bodybuilders, many people were hesitant to agree with me. (Which means, really, they secretly disagreed, right?)

But, more on point, I don't think people were looking at Semenya and saying, "She's unattractive, so she shouldn't be allowed to compete." They were amazed at her incredible improvement, trying to explain how she could shatter women's records, and her physicality appeared to link into a possible explanation. I don't think that they were unreasonable. If she had a different physical appearance, they would likely have looked harder at other explanations, sure, but you put all clues together when trying to figure out a puzzle don't you?

Putting right and wrong aside, there was another article that told that Semenya would often be redirected to the men's restroom by people who didn't know her. This is by people who hadn't seen her outstanding athletic prowess. They see her body and they see her light layer of hair on her face, and they make assumptions. Judge those people if you must, but I don't think they were being hostile. Ignorant, perhaps, but not malicious.

[Thorn]

Sorry for the hijack...but don't make race an issue in this That's really off topic, and while it may be a part of your life's experience, it would be unfair to generalize it into this situation.

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009...dominates.html

Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.

Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.

Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.

[shootingstar]

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond. You, as a white male, no matter how empathetic you are, will ever be able to understand large segments of the population. I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009...dominates.html

Back OT....
When a male dominates his sport (and doping has been disproved) we jump up and down and grant a god-like status. On the other hand, when a woman dominates her sport, she doesn't just have to fight accusations of doping, she has to "prove she's a woman". That is just wrong.

Semenya didn't "come out of no where". If you read the short bios that don't focus on her appearance, you discover that she's been running all her life and she's been playing on teams with boys. Recently, she has started with a coach and her performance jumped.

Now, any one of us female cyclists can attest that riding with the boys will make you stronger. And, many of us here, female and male, will attest to the amazing performance gain you can see initially under the tutelage of a good coach. So, should the world be that surprised at a jump in performance? I think not. But, then, I find this whole affair to be disturbing.

Important Mr. Silver to understand it is within living memory of non-white women who are older here, that it wasn't until around the late 1970's and onward, where we started to see alot more non-white female models in fashion publications here in North America. It's when marketers woke up and realized the demographics of their audience /potential customer base in North America. I keep on saying North America, because as a teenager I would see the fashion magazines from Hong Kong with their Chinese/Asian models and wonder why on earth people like them were not showing up in English language media.

There is a subtle standard certainly in the fashion world, acting/drama world and in popular women's spectator sports involving womanly grace (ie. figure skating, gymnastics, synchronized swimming, ballet, dance etc.), that beauty/what is considered womanly is: long legs, tall, female-looking face preferably with "refined features of lips not too thick, etc., beautiful skin, breasts, narrow waist, a bum not too big, etc.

Thankfully the beauty /womanly desirable standard now is bit more "elastic" these days, but not a whole lot.

If you don't believe me...then here is a story:
Last year, one of engineers from Philippines she complained to me she was getting too dark from all the sun here at our construction site. She said didn't look nice on her. STILL, having paler/whiter skin is seen as better than something richer in hue.

This woman was university educated and over 35.

[witeowl]

I'm white, but if the black community feels that Semenya is being judged unfairly due to her race, it isn't my place to say "don't play the race card", it is my place to ask them why they feel so. It is my place to try to understand. With all people under all circumstances, we have to remember that scars run deep and what may seem to be benign to us, may be a trigger. Racism is a very painful scar.

http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009...dominates.html

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Let's look at who else has had gender questioned (in track): A polish sprinter, Eva Klobukowska and an Indian runner, Santhi Soundarajan. So, those who have a tendency to blame everything on race will surely do so, but they're not correct. (By the way, though they're hard to find on the net, the one photo I saw of Eva on CNN showed a not-very-masculine blonde-haired girl. Probably had/has blue eyes, too.

My (step)sister spent a lot of her early life blaming everything on race. She then found greater happiness when she realized that the only person she was punishing was herself; by blaming everything on race, she was actually holding herself back. She decided, Am I being unfairly judged sometimes because of my race? Surely. But just as often I'm probably not, so why go around with this chip on my shoulder? She launched her life fantastically after that epiphany.

Anyway, I've been reading quite a bit on this case... and this is the first and only article I've found bringing race into it. Why? Probably because it's the only article to ignore that all athletes at the top of their game are questioned in one way or another, regardless of gender or ethnicity. Every single one.

[Mr. Bloom]

Warning: OT....

I was going to ignore you, Mr. Silver, but for some reason I feel compelled to respond.

Glad you didn't ignore me (wouldn't have accomplished much...) AND I'm glad you did respond (I welcome discussion/debate about contrary views).

I'm not blind to the advantages I've had for being caucasian in this crazy world we live.

Mimi, that's interesting since I recall you're Italian...and I am too. Frankly, it's been my experience that Italians tend to be viewed as "2nd Class" among "Caucasian" people...add to that the fact that I'm "vertically challenged" and not athletic makes me an additional potential object of scorn among my own gender. I don't feel that I have had any advantage except that I was by God's grace adopted by loving parents at the age of 4 days, was well educated, graduated in the top 10% of my class AND practiced HARD to interview well.

At the core, even the most challenged have found the road to success...

[witeowl]

I thought this essay put it nicely...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/sp...semenya&st=cse

That is a great article. Thanks for linking. It does show just how muddy the waters are.