Ranting about stupid dog ownership

[Irulan]

This seems illogical to me. Cats like to play, of course, but their reason for hunting is to eat. If they're not hungry, they will hunt way way less, don't you think? And you think the birds are in some kind of weakened state because they are doing what they do, and the cats are super-cats because they are fed by humans?

I have two cats in my yard, and rarely ever see them catch birds or find dead birds in the yard. They do, in fact, sometimes kill birds, but not nearly to the extent that they are decimating the local bird population. I scared away about 30 doves off the edge of my pool the other day--it was amazing. All the stray cats in the neighborhood couldn't have taken care of that bird population. (My dog hunts birds every single day, but she never catches them. )

I agree with Mimi that it's development and loss of habitat that hurts the birds. Cats are just part of the food chain.

Karen

I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.

[MartianDestiny]

I'm not going to take the time to google up links,(you can do that yourself if you want) but the statistics are out there that housecats hunt for the kill, not to eat. When was the last time that you saw a cat actually EAT what it KILLED? They don't, they play with them, then leave them lying around, preferably on the door step.

Honestly, the last time I saw a cat kill something it ate it. But I grew up on a farm and killing was expected of the cats (that was their job, and food from humans was a treat and incentive to stay around, not what they survived on)

I can believe some cats kill for sport. I cannot believe that even if every feral/outdoor cat killed for sport that it would equal the amount of damage to the bird population from other sources (loss of habitat, pesticides, cars, etc). Honestly, it would take quite a bit of scientific evidence to convince me that cats even came close to any one of those numbers.

[Cataboo]

Cats often play - and often that wounds birds and cats don't have clean wounds. I'm not going to argue it, studies have been done which show that cats, not being a native part of the local food chain do decimate bird and small mammal populations - you can look at the links I posted which do link to independent studies of what effect cats have on the native wildlife and cats do contribute to the decline in bird populations. Yes, there are a lot of other factors that contribute to the decline in bird populations... But the term I used was part of the decline. Not are solely responsible for.

And the number of people that claim "oh my cat doesn't eat/kill birds" is just silly.

No raccoons in my Mom's yard (least never been seen in the last 30 odd years) - the cats which hang out underneath the bushes right next to the ponds are a slight indication that they're the ones going after the fish - ocassionally a deer will fall in the pond, but it's usually fairly obvious when that's happened and there's fish death from that.

[Eden]

Just because you haven't seen them, doesn't mean that raccoons are not in the yard.... They are everywhere and plenty of them too. I've only seen them once or twice, but their destructive habits I've had plenty of. They love water and they love fish. Cats may enjoy fishies, but they don't generally like water. Unless the pond is extremely tiny and shallow or the fish congregate at the edges waiting to be caught something else is likely doing the fishing. Around here people also have problems with herons visiting their koi ponds.

[MartianDestiny]

... you can look at the links I posted which do link to independent studies of what effect cats have on the native wildlife and cats do contribute to the decline in bird populations...

Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)

The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).

In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.

In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biol...ent%202004.pdf

[Selkie]

My golden retrievers catch and kill birds. I've caught them in the act. True to their nature, I guess, as goldens are "huntin' dogs!" But they don't bite humans....

Ironically, the next door neighbor has a virtual bird sanctuary in their backyard but no shrubs/trees for bird roosting. So they come to our yard (shurbs galore and a huge old oak). This neighbor has an indoor cat--guess all the feeders are for his entertainment. Well, in addition to our dogs taking out these birds, several free-roaming neighborhood pet (not feral) felines kill them.

I may have inadvertently saved a cat this morning when I was riding my bike. My headlight scared off a fox, who was stealthily heading in a cat's direction.

[Aggie_Ama]

My in-laws black lab kills birds, snakes (good doggie they are taking the chicken eggs), possums, squirrels, he is such a hunter we won't bring our 9 lb schnauzer over. Their cat just watches the birds. We have a bird bath which has become the neighborhood cat napping place but I have yet to see the cats win. I have seen the martens attack the cats though.

[Deborajen]

You know, with all the threads on this forum about pets - showing off our pets, sharing stories, grieving for lost pets - I'm really disappointed and some of the downright hateful remarks on this thread.

As far as stupid/obnoxious pet behavior always being tracked back to a human? My neighbor's Rottweiler snapped at a few of the neighbor kids. The reason? His brain had grown too big for his skull, and he was in awful pain. The neighbors put him to sleep. I'm sure they, or others in a similar position, would love to have their noses rubbed in it.

Although my cats have never been outside to kill a bird, for play or for food, they can kill all the mice in the house that they want - I don't care if it's just for sport.

Back to the OP, Dogmama, try not to be too hard on your friend. It's probably best that she took Joey back soon. It's probably best that she not have a shelter pet at all. Poor Joey is probably scared to death. No wonder he barked at all the dogs at the vet's office - He's been bounced around. Who knows what all he's been through? And the vet's office probably smelled like the shelter and was a nightmare for him. But my heart aches for Joey. I hope he finds someone who can give him the extra love he needs.

And I'm extra sensitive right now. On Saturday, our beloved Siberian Husky, Leia, went over the rainbow bridge. We had to have her put to sleep, and my heart is broken into a million pieces right now. We don't know if she suffered more than she let us know or if it happened suddenly and mercifully.

Lighten up, people.

[OakLeaf]

((((((((Deborajen & family))))))))

I'm so sorry for your loss. Give yourself permission to grieve, knowing that in time the happy memories will outweigh your present pain.

[salsabike]

You know, with all the threads on this forum about pets - showing off our pets, sharing stories, grieving for lost pets - I'm really disappointed and some of the downright hateful remarks on this thread.

As far as stupid/obnoxious pet behavior always being tracked back to a human? My neighbor's Rottweiler snapped at a few of the neighbor kids. The reason? His brain had grown too big for his skull, and he was in awful pain. The neighbors put him to sleep. I'm sure they, or others in a similar position, would love to have their noses rubbed in it.

Although my cats have never been outside to kill a bird, for play or for food, they can kill all the mice in the house that they want - I don't care if it's just for sport.

Back to the OP, Dogmama, try not to be too hard on your friend. It's probably best that she took Joey back soon. It's probably best that she not have a shelter pet at all. Poor Joey is probably scared to death. No wonder he barked at all the dogs at the vet's office - He's been bounced around. Who knows what all he's been through? And the vet's office probably smelled like the shelter and was a nightmare for him. But my heart aches for Joey. I hope he finds someone who can give him the extra love he needs.

And I'm extra sensitive right now. On Saturday, our beloved Siberian Husky, Leia, went over the rainbow bridge. We had to have her put to sleep, and my heart is broken into a million pieces right now. We don't know if she suffered more than she let us know or if it happened suddenly and mercifully.

Lighten up, people.

Thanks for all of this post, Deborajen. And I'm very sorry about Leia. It's such hard stuff.

[Cataboo]

Ok, I looked at all three links. NONE of them show a scientific study and NONE of them cite their sources. I'm sorry, but I'm a trained scientist and these articles might as well be pulling numbers out of their rear-ends as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not convinced they are independent (I'm inclined to think they are all "quoting" Kress and not giving him credit, but I could be wrong of course.)

The link to Steve Kress' article in the Audubon magazine is the most credible being that he does have a PhD in Environmental Studies (I had to go dig for that info). But, he should know better. There's no mention of how he came to the number of deaths from cats (but he did say how he got to the number of cats in the US and how he got to the number of window/glass deaths...). I'd loose my job and get kicked out of grad school if I tried to pass off something like that as scientific (and honestly he probably wasn't trying to, but he should cite or link to the scientific work as well). The info would never get through a peer reviewed journal like that, but unfortunately he's a scientist so it's automatically credible to the public even when it's not credible. IMO, that's an abuse of the trust put into scientists and it makes me ill. (I'll resend that last statement if he in fact has published a peer reviewed scientific work with his data on this).

In the end I'm not arguing that cats do not contribute at all. And in fact I agree with you that the vast majority of cats should be kept indoors and confined when outdoors.

In fact here's a scientific article that actually agrees with your point, ranking cats as potentially equal to glass strikes in deaths (however, they still don't cite or explain the data behind cat deaths (at least in the intro where it is mentioned)...so I still don't "trust" the information, though I'm more inclined to believe it's plausible):
http://www.muhlenberg.edu/depts/biol...ent%202004.pdf

Since I was loo lazy to look up actual primary references way back when, and I just ran across this article reading the news today:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../400563a0.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/sc...nted=1&_r=1&em

[crazycanuck]

We've just started searching for a new friend for our lovely doggie & am heartbroken each time i visit a few of the dog refuge websites. I want to bring all of the doggies home but we don't have a big enough house/yard.

I really do wish humans would treat thier animals much better than they do . There was one good woman mentioned on one of the sites-she had the heart to give her fluffy friend to a refuge as it was being beaten by her partner .

[tulip]

Last week, when I was walking my dog, I noticed a couple of teenage girls walking a pitbull puppy. I didn't take much notice because there are lots of people who walk dogs in my neighborhood.

A few hours later, I heard this sad howling out back in the alley. I thought that my neighbors across the alley had gotten a puppy or something. I went out to take a peek, and that same pitbull puppy was tied up to my back fence. The girls had left her there. I like to think they figured I was a good bet to take care of the dog.

She was mangey and skinny and very hungry. And very sweet and cute. A friend down the street and I got it to a PB rescue org. She'll be adopted in no time, they said, because she's sweet and a puppy.

[MartianDestiny]

Since I was loo lazy to look up actual primary references way back when, and I just ran across this article reading the news today:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../400563a0.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/sc...nted=1&_r=1&em

Those articles state that cats are a problem, which I don't doubt, I still doubt the initial assertion that their damage is greater than all other sources combined.

The NYTimes article is of course not peer reviewed and contains outright falsehoods and ridiculous emotional arguments to boot. At least they link to a real paper; of course the problem with "Letters to Nature" is you really can't accurately describe your research in a mere 2 pages, though the short articles do have some usefulness.

[Biciclista]

Martian destiny, we're back to human hubris again. How dare we blame cats after all the damage we HUMANS do? we've ruined entire migratory patterns because of the light pollution of our cities!
but this is not the thread for this, this was about someone who dumped a dog.

PS Despite what the articles say; my hunting cat DOES kill rats; close to a dozen this year alone.