friend coming out of the closet - tips appreciated

[TxDoc]

why do you suggest that people should be closeted on TE?

Actually I find this surprising as well.
It seems to me that we are quite a tolerant/friendly/open discussion board, where many different people talk bicycles, regardless of individual differences. At least from what I see, it appears that we all welcome and respect everyone here, regardless of different race, ethnicity, ideals, political opinion, social class, employment, status, sexual orientation, etc.

[Trek420]

Actually I find this surprising as well.
It seems to me that we are quite a tolerant/friendly/open discussion board, where many different people talk bicycles, regardless of individual differences. At least from what I see, it appears that we all welcome and respect everyone here, regardless of different race, ethnicity, ideals, political opinion, social class, employment, status, sexual orientation, etc.

Well, this is a cycling forum after all and all in all a pretty welcoming bunch for all sorts. We've had our moments of friendly and not so much discourse. Taken as a group personally I'm more worried that I don't think we do as well on issues of race and or class; the beginner with a Wallmart bike for example .. we tend to be a kind of exclusive bunch.

But you will not find a brighter, more knowledgeable, nor a more articulate group on the web.

Long live TE.

LPH there are even many gay cycling clubs if your friend and her gal want to ride off in the sunset together here's just one of many:

www.fastnfab.org

[TxDoc]

LPH there are even many gay cycling clubs if your friend and her gal want to ride off in the sunset together

Now, this is what I find confusing. And sorry, this may end up being long but I am really confused!!!
We are trying to give LPH some good advice - and of course some people know more than others about the topic and have more suggestions. The real good advice that several people have agreed on is "act normal". Which sounds really very reasonable to me. It's a friend who is in a new relationship, just be happy for her and be a good friend. Sounds good.
And then - a 'gay cycling club'.
What?
Why would someone need a 'gay cycling club' - or a 'gay bar' for that matter, or a 'gay restaurant', or a 'gay night club', or whatever? I mean, why can't we all meet in the same places, clubs, bars... Where is it written that some people have to gather in one place and some in another - just because of who they are in a relationship with?
What are we, segregated? Can't we all simply belong to a cycling club, period, without creating a new apartheid?

It seems like a contradiction: on one side we all tell LPH to act normal, because we are a progressive society and we treat everyone appropriately - and then on the other side it's like some groups decide to confine themselves and build their own little niche where only they can get together, and where the rest of us are not allowed.

I mean - we all scream at racism - but is this any different than creating a 'Caucasian-only restaurant', or the 'Chinese-only bar', or the 'African-American-only cycling club'? You express concerns about social class discrimination, but how is this different from having a 'CEO-only-restaurant', or a 'blue-collars-only-bar'? I just made all those up, and really hope that none of them exists - and that every club and bar and anything else welcomes everyone.
It looks like if someone wanted to build his own 'ghetto' himself - why would anyone do that? Why in the world would you want to be separated from everyone else - if your goal is to be considered as normal as everyone else, and treated as appropriately and respectfully as everyone else?

This really I do not understand.
I think that the more normal everyone is acting - the more people will stop turning their head at anything that looks different, be it color, gender, orientation... Decades ago a woman or an African-American in law school or medical school would turn heads. Thanks to the Lord - we have evolved! Likewise, decades ago a gay couple in a restaurant would have turned head - but again, thanks to God, we have evolved.

Does it mean we all approve everything? Heck no. We all have our ideas, religion, opinions. Just think about politics for one - how many of your friends have a different political affiliation than the one you have? Are you less friends because of their different opinion? I'm quite sure the answer is no. I'm a proud Republican and I'm good friend with a bunch of liberals. We have some animated discussions during the campaigns - but we are not less friends because of that. And I would feel quite weird if I was offered to belong to a 'Republican-only-cycling-club'...
We all have our agrees and disagrees in this world - but that does not mean that we have to exclude anyone from circles, clubs, groups, gatherings, businesses, etc. So why would someone decide to just exclude himself to begin with?


For the same reason I do not understand (and much less approve!) the manifestations of excess like those pride parades etc. if someone's purpose is to live a normal life without being 'discriminated' - then why does he/she act in a totally abnormal fashion? It gives the impression that the purpose is really to demonstrate aggressivity and disturb or irritate others who may have a different opinion. It's like instead of working towards unity, someone is working towards division - and it does not make any sense.
Can we all just be more spontaneous, less aggressive, and try to help each other and work together?

All this may sound naive to you - but hey, here's where I come from:
I grew up Catholic and I am still a practicing one. Well, my Pastor always says that I worship two Gods - the real God and Medicine but I'm doing my best
Anyway, when I was young I used to always go to church with my grandmother. One thing she often said is that we are all good in Church on Sunday when we listen to the sermon - but the real challenge is to get out in the real world an put it all into practice. We get out there and we meet a number of different people: those we like, those we don't like, those we agree with, those we are opposed to, and even a bunch of those we completely disapprove... Of course our first impulse would be to turn our back and walk the other way. And right there, it's where God puts us to the test: can we reach out and welcome everyone as brother and sister - no matter how different he/she is from us? Can we show respect to everyone - regardless of whether we approve or disapprove his/her choices, beliefs, actions, and lifestyle?
If the answer is no, then according to grandma we still have a lot to learn from the Bible.

[lph]

I think this is one of those things where you just have to belong to the group in question to see the need or desire for a separate meeting place. We have our own "segregated" women's cycling forum right here. It's not women-only/men-barred, as I'm certain a gay cycling club would never be gay-only/straight-barred. But it's FOR women, and it's not just because we have different anatomy from men, but because we for various reasons feel we have more in common with each other and find this a valuable place to meet.

But I'm now backing quietly out of this discussion Thank you very much for valuable tips and friendly support, as always! Much appreciated.

[Trek420]

I'm certain a gay cycling club would never be gay-only/straight-barred.

Correctomundo

I sometimes ride with a local club if time, schedule, ride style (short, slow, easy) matches my schedule. Anyone can ride.

Some tips if you are straight but go: bring a bike, helmet, water bottle. Leave any preconceptions at home.

If asked out for coffee after the ride do NOT run screaming from the route.
do say "thanks, that's flattering. I'm straight, really I am
do NOT be insulted if the rider says "No, not interested in you, Really, I need coffee. Date you? Are you kidding??? "
or if the rider says "Oh, dang. You gotta brother? " introduce 'em if you do and he's looking.

[Irulan]

eerrr.... ummm....
I'm going to argue with this, and put my flame proof undies on.

'm certain a gay cycling club would never be gay-only/straight-barred.

I'm not. In my experience, groups that are unified by ...something... be it a characteristic, a belief, an activity can be pretty darn exclusive, in indirect and subtle ways. They may not directly say you aren't welcome, or bar someone from joining but it certainly can be insinuated, and people can be made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. Not to say that all of these kinds of groups are like this... not at all.. but to say they don't exist would be a falsehood, and to broadly say specifically that straight people would be welcomed into a gay specific group may or may not be true. It's really going to depend on the community, and how inclusive/exclusive/separatist or "PC" it is, or is not.

I do speak from personal experiences lest someone think I am theorizing.

[KnottedYet]

All I know is that I love my friends who supported me as I came out, I love my mom who laughed when I told her I was gay and she said she'd known since I was 16 (mind you, I didn't date a woman until I was 31), I love my managers who didn't fire me and feel pity for the ones who did, I love my coworkers who were so excited about my wedding, and I love my church for standing behind me and my family 100%.

LPH, all you have to do is tell your friend you love her and stand up for her and her rights. I think it's probably easier to do in Norway and the rest of the "First" world than it is here in the US, which may be why this thread has drifted so much. I hope you are still getting your question answered. Be willing to listen to her. If this is new to her (I had known about myself since I was about 5 years old, but I've known other gay women who really didn't have a clue until later) she may need to talk about it a lot. Like, A LOT A LOT A LOT. Listen. Invite her and her sweetie to dinner. Invite her alone for a walk. Be yourself. All shall be well.

[Trek420]

In my experience, groups that are unified by ...something... be it a characteristic, a belief, an activity can be pretty darn exclusive, in indirect and subtle ways. They may not directly say you aren't welcome, or bar someone from joining but it certainly can be insinuated, and people can be made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome.

Ya know when I wandered into Bohemian Grove for a beer that i exactly how I felt "well, little lady. Uhm, err, welcome to the fold. Now if you're not a hooker or at least obscenely rich and powerful, grab a brew and get out"

Seriously a lot could depend on your attitude and that of the group, the event, the ride, prevailing culture, the time (you don't say when this was) .... for example there are many states where one can be fired for being gay, no job protection. In those areas people would understandably be a little more cautious. If I was living in that area, I'm at a gay event be it cycling or sewing circle and here's this straight person maybe I work with them or this "outs" someone else.

When I rode my first ALC my tentmate was a Different Spokes member, her BFF B tented next door. B is a big ol' bubbah of a straight man, could not be less gay. He and his partner ride with DS club. They could ride with any club, they ride with DS and are well respected and liked and vice versa.

So next time you're in NYC, there's a Fast and Fabulous ride you want to join, you have your bike ... just ask. There are for example Christian Cycling clubs. Say I wanted to do a group ride and their Thursday Slow Flat Easy Ride is perfect for me. I might ask "can a middle aged Jewish gal tag along?" They say no, that is their right. They say yes, awesome.

I'd imagine they might pray before setting off, that's fine, we're riding, we need it. Not going to jump up and down and screaming "that's not the way I pray, d@mn it!!" gonna be respectful of their culture, gonna learn something - I'm on their turf, gonna enjoy a ride.

By the same token if one was on a ride with a largely gay club (huge overgeneralizations follows here ) there may be stops for brunch or shopping but with respect all can enjoy the ride.

I think of this like TE itself. This is/was a largely women's board but we've seen over time men join. It's a different culture than other boards and while we can't quite figure out why I think it's largely because it is a mostly women's space. But we've seen men join, some feathers ruffled (remember when we pretty much ran off a soldier serving us in Iraq? Ah, nostalgia ) when they do but largely with respect for the culture and flavor of the board they've become welcome contributors.

[DebW]

TxDoc, your position is certainly debated in the gay community, and most gays would welcome a world in which the ideal you describe is the practice. That ideal world has been termed "post-gay" and we're slowly approaching that. But as long as gay people in the US and elsewhere are treated as second-class citizens, as long as people can be fired from their jobs for being gay, as long as the federal government has laws on the books REQUIRING discrimination against gay people (DOMA, DADT), as long as gay-bashing and homophobia make people afraid for their safety, then gay people will march in parades to be visible and demand their rights. Those of us who can march in parades and be visible are doing it for all those can't: the people who remain closeted out of fear, the high school kid struggling to tell a parent that they're gay, the service member who has to edit every word they say just to serve their country. When a gay couple can walk down the street holding hands anywhere in the country without fear or even getting stared at, and when everyone is not automatically presumed to be straight and presumed to have two parents of the opposite sex, then we will have arrived. But until then, gay people will seek out groups and situations where they can feel comfortable being themselves and showing affection to a partner in public. And even after that day arrives, there will be gay social groups just to increase the odds of finding dating material.

[papaver]

Asking "why should there be gay groups" is like asking "why should there be female bicycle forums".

People (no watter what gender, orientation, religion, hobby) are always looking for people like themselves.

[tantrumbean]

As for gay nightclubs, gay cycling groups, etc - yes, it would be nice if there was no need for them, but sometimes it is just really nice to know that you can be totally open and not have to worry about peoples attitudes! Because, unlike being straight you do have to constantly consider if people are going to be ok if you come out to them. In fact, it's hard work constantly having to weigh it up anyway. If you are straight, you can just mention your partner without having to think about avoiding pronouns in case you get a funny reaction. If you are gay, you can't. For example, me and my partner are both members of the same cycling club, most people in there are quite a lot older than us, and we've never come out to them, just because it's not worth it. To be honest, most of them would probably be perfectly fine, but the risk of funny reactions is just not worth it. They think we are friends, some probably suspect, but we haven't made it official. Also, it's one of those things where you just know that everybody is going to gossip about it behind your back for a bit, till it all calms down again and to be quite honest, you get to a point where you just can't be bothered.

As somebody above said, coming out is a continuing process, you have to do it over and over again, and sometimes it does get a bit tedious. Even if people are ok about it, you still get asked the same questions over and over again. This is where exclusively gay clubs, etc just give a welcome respite. Also, for a lot of people who are struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, it's a safe place to talk about their experiences to others who've been through the same stuff and come out at the other end...

Oops, that turned into a bit of a long post...

[ridebikeme]

Very well said Deb and Tantrumbean!!

The reality is this: in large groups of people, there are ALWAYS smaller groups of people that form.. for better commuincation, more things in common, etc...

LPH thank you for being concerned for your friend; I'm sure that she truly values your friendship!!