Behind the Scenes @ Chrysler Dealers

[GLC1968]

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

And there is the jist of the problem - they can't make as much money if they sell these cars here.

And a year ago, Toyota was losing money on the Prius. Go figure.

Americans will pay top dollar for a big shiny SUV that says "look at me, I can afford this"...but there is no way (at least a year ago) that they'd pay it for a Ford Fiesta.

[papaver]

And there is the jist of the problem - they can't make as much money if they sell these cars here.

And a year ago, Toyota was losing money on the Prius. Go figure.

Americans will pay top dollar for a big shiny SUV that says "look at me, I can afford this"...but there is no way (at least a year ago) that they'd pay it for a Ford Fiesta.

Oh they will if they'll have to pay as much for gas as we Europeans do.

[smilingcat]

Papaver,

True to a point. Culturally we are very different than the Europeans or the Asians.

We are society of never satisfied. Not satisfied/not big enough. MacMansion is not being big enough. For a family of four, do you need a 5 or 6 bedroom house with 3 bathrooms or more? And does it have to have over 6,000(557sq meter)-10,000 sq. feet(929sq meter) house?

Not big enough with Big SUVs. Cadillac Escalade (6,800 pounds/almost 3100kilos), Chevy Tahoe (6,500pounds) Ford Expedition (5800pound/2600kilos). Three guys at my office are driving around in Ford F350 4wd, Chevy 3500, and another is driving a F250 4WD. They live in the city. And they don't care about the gas milage being 6-8MPG. (about 2.4km/liter). When the boys get a new truck or high end sports car, they all have to go out and lust over it. and compare against their own truck or car. Yup another set drives a modified Audi R4 (his blown his engine like two or three times already). Another two drives a corvette, My new boss who took over control of this division drives a Bentley continental GT. And in the same building where we lease out part of the building to another business, guys there are driving Merceds AMG looks very fast. And yet another Bentley continental GT. Even a tech who can't afford an expensive car is driving around in a Hummer H2. Didn't say a word to the guy. What is the point???

They do complain about the gas price but the way they drive you would neve know. Hard acceleration. sporty group likes to hit 60MPH in around 4 seconds from standing still. Truck group is not much better. And hard braking too. They don't think they are driving all that hard.

Culturally, we Americans never have enough of anything.Sad And we also have a very short memory and attension span. Hybrid car sales I heard was down 87% since the peak of last year. I think this number is not corrected for the overall downturn of the economy. Still, our economy hasn't dropped that much. It just goes to show you that we may talk about conservation and saving gas... but our action says something else.

Speaking of which, gas price is climbing again. It's almost $3.00 gallon for the 87 octane (regular) here in California. And bike theft in my area is way up I keep my bikes in my bedroom.

[bmccasland]

I think we're too far away from the memories of the people who grew up during the Depression. My grandparents, now all deceased, were of the "waste not, want not" OR "make do or do without" generation. I'll be 50 this year and I have some of that frugalness, but I certainly don't see it in the new college grads that are interning in my office. These "kids" would be equivalent to the adult greatgrandchildren or great-great grandchildren of Depression Era adults - just too far away - it's ancient history to them.

[7rider]

True to a point. Culturally we are very different than the Europeans or the Asians.

<snip>

Not big enough with Big SUVs. Cadillac Escalade (6,800 pounds/almost 3100kilos), Chevy Tahoe (6,500pounds) Ford Expedition (5800pound/2600kilos). Three guys at my office are driving around in Ford F350 4wd, Chevy 3500, and another is driving a F250 4WD. They live in the city. And they don't care about the gas milage being 6-8MPG. (about 2.4km/liter). When the boys get a new truck or high end sports car, they all have to go out and lust over it. and compare against their own truck or car. Yup another set drives a modified Audi R4 (his blown his engine like two or three times already). Another two drives a corvette, My new boss who took over control of this division drives a Bentley 8. And in the same building where we lease out part of the building to another business, guys there are driving Merceds AMG looks very fast. And yet another Bentley 8. Even a tech who can't afford an expensive car is driving around in a Hummer H2. Didn't say a word to the guy. What is the point???

<snip>

Culturally, we Americans never have enough of anything.

<snip>

Okay. First... I admit to not following this thread at all.
Generally, I agree with what you are saying.

But...
I saw this and what leaped out at me (other than "What's a Bently 8?" I looked at their website and there is no such car...the "Bently 8L (liter)" was I think from the 1930's...(from a 5-second Google search) which would be pretty cool to see driving around, in all honesty.)....is that...not to defend American consumerism, but 3 of those gas guzzling behemoths you mention are not American cars.
I don't think Americans - or American car manufacturers - have a monopoly on building or buying completly pointless vehicles.
One of my DH's favorite shows on t.v. is Top Gear - a British show that glamorizes and highlights ultra-fast, hardly economic, sports cars. Most of those cars are European...or Japanese (in fact, they hate American cars). The things they do to and with cars would freeze a greenie's heart. (That said, the show IS hysterically funny).
And, no, I don't think there is any reason to drive an F350 or a Hummer in a city.
Oh...the other thing that leaped out is that your co-workers are NOT representative of what the "average American" drives...by a long shot.

[Crankin]

Well, my DH has a Lexus SUV; the big one, not the soccer mom car. We use it for lots of hauling, taking bikes, canoe, etc. He does not want to get rid of it. Last year, just when gas prices started going up, he bought a Miyata, to satisfy his testosterone urges, but seriously, it gets 30 mpg. He drives it from March to November, but he also commutes to work a lot of days in the summer, so the SUV stays parked most of the time. I can't complain, since he paid for it in full, even though nobody needs 2 cars... we are actually spending much less for gas, since he got the Miyata, even though we have 3 cars.
I also think we just drive a lot less than a lot of people.

[shootingstar]

I think we're too far away from the memories of the people who grew up during the Depression. My grandparents, now all deceased, were of the "waste not, want not" OR "make do or do without" generation. I'll be 50 this year and I have some of that frugalness, but I certainly don't see it in the new college grads that are interning in my office. These "kids" would be equivalent to the adult greatgrandchildren or great-great grandchildren of Depression Era adults - just too far away - it's ancient history to them.

The make do or do without Depression era thinking..is not something big among the younger generations, unless they are financially strapped.

Next generations seem to need not just reasons of poverty, but ADDITIONAL motivators to change their choices how to consume responsibly..but still look be accepted by their social peer group.

I'm not knocking powerful motivators of environmental protection, healthy whole food sources..but merely just the philosophy of living within one's own means with long term frugality can be a tough call for many people. It does require a different pacing of one's lifestyle...and more time planning, scheduling and grouping tasks/errands together for 1 trip. It is a major change for some people, like yahoos hard accelerating their cars for no real emergency. But after awhile, the change becomes part of one's being.

Sad thing, some of the developing countries are inching towards aping the North American consumerist, car-oriented lifestyle. They view cars and whole ball of our wax, as higher status, "better" living.

That's some culture among the boys there, smilingcat. For some reason, I don't hear much about cars with the men I've worked with over the years. Maybe they didn't want to talk about such with a car-clueless like myself.

[smilingcat]

(other than "What's a Bently 8?" I looked at their website and there is no such car...the "Bently 8L (liter)" was I think from the 1930's...(from a 5-second Google search) which would be pretty cool to see driving around, in all honesty.)....
And, no, I don't think there is any reason to drive an F350 or a Hummer in a city.
Oh...the other thing that leaped out is that your co-workers are NOT representative of what the "average American" drives...by a long shot.

I thought that's what the guys called it. so I looked it up. It's a Bentley continental GT?? The emblem looked like an 8 in the middle. I guess its "B" and not an "8". And checking on the spec. I think that's what it is cause the boys were talking about having a 500+ hp engine.

true these boys are not the average American drivers per se. I understand technology not model names of cars.

[beth h]

I heard an analysis on the radio last night. I think I was listening to Marketplace. The analyst suggested that GM et al. are probably not going to be around 10 or 20 years from now. But the bailout will allow people to transition out of the the business slowly, hopefully preventing an utter catastrophe.

How many people, given the "option" of transitioning slowly out of the way of life the car industry helps to feed, would choose to change? I don't have the same level of faith as the government I guess. Change of this sort will eventually have to be forced -- and enforced -- in order to take hold.

[Tuckervill]

true these boys are not the average American drivers per se. I understand technology not model names of cars.

I think their mindset is average among MEN, but not our entire society. The fact that they have big or fast cars just means they have the means to do so, more than the average guy. I don't like being brushed with that broad swipe of us being a consumerist society. Many of us are not, and many of us are young people, too.

Two things I was reminded of. I recently rented a Ford Escape for 2 weeks because my Element got wrecked and was in the body shop. The Escape has a mpg indicator and you can monitor the way you drive and how it affects the gas mileage. Through my normal driving, I raised the average mpg from 19.8 to 22.3 over 981 miles that I had it. I don't do jackrabbit stops or scream up to stop lights. I imagine that the first 1,000 miles on that car were driven by people who don't care how much gas they're burning. I drive the way I do BECAUSE I care about how much gas I buy.

My husband drives a Ford F150 extended cab, and the reason he does is because, at 6'7" and legs like a giraffe, he fits in so few cars comfortably. There are literally health issues with his hips because of his height, and so it is very important that he be comfortable when driving. Even still, he drives without his shoes on anything longer than 20 minutes, so he can have that extra inch of legroom. I WISH it was a 4WD because we do use the truck for everything yard and camping related, and 4WD is handy in certain situations.

Another thing: Since gas prices went so far down, people just went back to their old habits again. I know I started driving "to town" more often, whereas before I was very careful about combining trips.

Karen

[shootingstar]

I think their mindset is average among MEN, but not our entire society. The fact that they have big or fast cars just means they have the means to do so, more than the average guy. I don't like being brushed with that broad swipe of us being a consumerist society. Many of us are not, and many of us are young people, too.

No doubt you try to be less consumerist. Wouldn't take remarks too personally.

And frugality is relative. I benchmark my frugality (even my university student years as most frugal), against my parents where mother washed plastic bags and hung them on laundry line outdoors to re-use them several times.

They raised 5 children in 1 bedroom apartment in southern ontario before scraping money for lst house when child #6 was still in momma's womb. Gettin' way too crowded. I still have memories of looking at our backyard after we moved into rundown house (price was a steal)..overgrown with weeds and beer bottles from former occupants.

I know that many TE members still can't believe that I have been car-free for huge chunks of life..no wonder: Being car-free is a tad pale compared to other frugalities.

[Mr. Bloom]

Oh they will if they'll have to pay as much for gas as we Europeans do.

papa, I struggle with some of the American/European comparisons:

- we drive more, because we're more spread out
- because we're so spread out, rapid transit across regions is way too expensive to build

- one might argue that Canada is big and has more available, but remember that almost all of Canada's population lives in the southern 50 miles of the country...it might as well be Chile

Off topic:
- our cellular is weaker, because we have so much land mass
- we don't speak languages because most of us have to travel a long way to regularly encounter someone who doesn't speak English...

Give us $10/gallon gas, and we still only afford rapid transit in the big cities...I'm confident that we'll get there...but it's a much bigger investment for us because of our sheer size.

Perspective: The US is 309x bigger than Belgium by land area, but only 27x bigger by population. We'd have to tax everyone 10 times more to build the same infrastructure (and taxes are un-American)

[Crankin]

Shooting Star, my mom washed out bags, too. And labeled everything in the freezer, etc. She did not have to, but I think she learned this from *her* mom, who was a young mother in the depression. My mom was born in 1929, a week after the crash of the stock market.
It's funny, some things I am very frugal or conscious of (buying real food, cooking good meals, how much I am driving), but other things I want convenience. I take the train or commuter rail to my grad classes, as not only can I not bear to fight the traffic and bad drivers in Cambridge, but I won't pay for parking, or be continually worried I have to run out and put more money in the meter. I'd rather pay the mass transit. The university reimburses me for parking at the train garage, as it's seen as helping the parking situation and when I take the commuter rail, the local grocery store lets us park there for free. I've ridden my bike to the commuter rail station a few times and even got lights, etc., but now, the schedule to come home does not fit my schedule.
Well, I had a car free day, today, because I skipped my group ride that was meeting too far away, for a ride that didn't thrill me. Since I have to drive to that same area tomorrow for a meeting, I am glad.

[tulip]

papa, I struggle with some of the American/European comparisons:

- we drive more, because we're more spread out
- because we're so spread out, rapid transit across regions is way too expensive to build

- one might argue that Canada is big and has more available, but remember that almost all of Canada's population lives in the southern 50 miles of the country...it might as well be Chile

Off topic:
- our cellular is weaker, because we have so much land mass
- we don't speak languages because most of us have to travel a long way to regularly encounter someone who doesn't speak English...

Give us $10/gallon gas, and we still only afford rapid transit in the big cities...I'm confident that we'll get there...but it's a much bigger investment for us because of our sheer size.

Perspective: The US is 309x bigger than Belgium by land area, but only 27x bigger by population. We'd have to tax everyone 10 times more to build the same infrastructure (and taxes are un-American)

If you take Europe as a whole, instead of small countries, the land mass is the same-ish (okay well, it's bigger anyways). Of course Belgium is smaller than the US. But it it still possible to go from Sweden to southern Spain or Italy by a relatively efficient and effective train system. Yes, it could use improvement, but it is possible. Try that here. Nope.

There are many, many areas of Europe that are very rural and require a car for the people who live there. Those cars tend to be small, fuel efficient little things. I have rarely seen pickup trucks in my years in Europe. But when those people have to go long distances, they are able to catch a train pretty close by that is efficient, on time, and relatively affordable to get where they need to go. Amtrak is none of those.

Language--uh, I hear Spanish everyday. There's no excuse for not learning Spanish if you live in the US these days. Period.

There's a whole lot that the US can adapt from Europe. I don't buy the excuse that we're so different. If we wanted to do it, if the will was there, we would find a way. Highway subsidies could be transferred to rail, etc. But the will is not there, so it won't happen.

In the meantime, I drive my small car that is not as fuel efficient as the same model in Europe. Why?? It's the same &$*#(*$ car! No safety feature differences, the exact same car except for the mileage. I rented on in France last year. It was great because everything was in the same place. I just didn't have to stop at the gas station so much.

[Biciclista]

I sure wouldn't put the blame for all these high powered cars on MEN. I've been honked at plenty of times by WOMEN in large SUV's with heavy feet.
And half of my bike club was taken out by a 5 foot tall woman driving a 4x4 pickup truck.

And when gas prices go up, if it hurts bad enough, habits will change.
It's the rare fool in Italy who drives a large car today.
But it's "unamerican" to suggest that we'd be better off with higher fuel prices.